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Trinity Brewing
05/05/14 06:20 PM  
7 day Sour
Trinity Brewing has a lovely 7 day sour brewed with lacto and Brettanomyces. The bottle says it's brewed with a first and second 'slims' process. Does anyone know what 'slims' means?
Smokinghole
05/06/14 09:02 AM  
Re: 7 day Sour
Sounds to me like they're being cute and "proprietary". I would guess they brew lauter and do a light sparge for the main part of the beer. Then sparge the rest for a very low gravity wort don't hop or hop very lightly and add lacto then blend together. Sort of like old English gyles off the same mash only instead of separate brands it is recombined after each separate fermentation has done its thing.
KindofBlues71
05/06/14 09:20 AM  
Re: 7 day Sour
I, too, was curious about this beer and a google search turned up an article on Focus on the Beer (http://focusonthebeer.com/2013/07/trinity-brewings-seven-day-sour-vert-gueuze.html/).

Per Jason at Trinity:
"I call ’7 Day Sour,’ a Vert Gueuze which for lack of better terms means ‘Young Gueuze.’ …I decided to develop a technique that actually promotes and takes care of the bacteria. After collecting our wort we keep it warm in the kettle for three days and add a pitch of Lacto (pre boil/hops). The hotter temperatures really encourages growth of the bacteria, production of acid (sour), and a dramatic drop in pH. Lactobacillus is also very sensitive to hops, and adding the pitch of Lacto pre-hop ensures that no harm will be done to the bacteria. With this technique I’m able to produce a pH as low as aging a sour a full twelve months on oak. After three days of hot fermentation we do our boil and add hops, after the boil we pump the soured wort into our Fermenting Vessel and do a four day cool fermentation with a blend of 95% Brettanomyces and 5% Lacto (we reintroduce the Lacto post boil in case anyone wants to age the beer)."
TimT
05/07/14 03:24 AM  
Re: 7 day Sour
That article made me cringe.
ME
05/07/14 10:11 AM  
Re: 7 day Sour
7's the key number here. Think about it. 7-Elevens. 7 dwarves. 7, man, that's the number. 7 chipmunks twirlin' on a branch, eatin' lots of sunflowers on my uncle's ranch. You know that old children's tale from the sea. It's like you're dreamin' about Gorgonzola cheese when it's clearly Brie time, baby. Step into my office.

Why?

'Cause you're fuckin' fired!
KindofBlues71
05/08/14 11:46 AM  
Re: 7 day Sour
Well played sir...
Smokinghole
05/10/14 09:55 AM  
Re: 7 day Sour
With quick sour beers all the rage now I've had the opportunity to taste a few pre-yeast soured beers over the past year. I've had sour mashed beers and kettle soured. Each method at all the places I've tasted had a weird off putting flavor reminiscent fecal/vomit something likely due to aerobic bacterial fermentation. With my knowledge of DO in beer even hot water will be in the PPM range which is plenty of DO in a mash or preboiled wort to provide oxygen to make yucky flavors. I may be more sensitive to it than others but I won't be seeking out any more fast sours anytime soon. I am happy with my self-assembled souring culture that can sour an average gravity wort with light hopping in six months with no signs of extreme snotty viscosity like the ECY cultures.
KindofBlues71
05/12/14 08:08 AM  
Re: 7 day Sour
Hey Smokinghole, I recognize your username from the HBT forums. Would you mind posting some info about your sour culture? Flavor profile, types of beers you've soured with it, how you created it? Thanks!
Smokinghole
05/12/14 08:41 AM  
Re: 7 day Sour
My sour culture is just a massive collection of lambics and other sours I've drank over time. Then one day I brewed in high gravity style 11 gal of saison wort to end up with 16 gal in the end. I split the batch between brett trios and was wondering what to do with the second half. I looked in my fridge of tubes and jars that I've collected and worked on in college with micro plates. I decided to just take the culture of lambic bottle yeasts/bacteria and pitched about 100ml of the slurry. It's a mix of Cantillion, 3F, Tilquin, you name it I drank it, and saved the bottle sediments in one single jar. I've just been repitching it since it has been a very pleasant profile.

The initial profile of the yeast is a musty funkiness, not offensive, but not my ideal flavor. At about a year in the bottle it loses the mustiness and gets pretty fruity and citrusy. I brew the beers a lot of times to be a saison wort but using decoction techniques. I mix fresh and aged hops and then dry hop before bottling.

I've initially soured just saison worts but at the moment I have it going in a imperialish stout that I started with ECY02 and I wanted to clear up the ropiness faster. I haven't brewed much this last year life got a little crazy last fall. I finally brewed again yesterday after almost 9 months of not brewing. So I'm going to start hitting it and get other worts soured with this to see how it acts when those as well.

So I don't really know what's in the culture but even with an extreme under pitch (like 30ml of settled yeast in 10 gal) it gets ripping in 24hrs. It has a very snotty looking odd krausen and smells a bit off while in primary fermentation. The pellicle is just thin and dusty typically however immediately after primary has settled I can get quite large slimy bubbles.
ME
05/12/14 09:03 AM  
Re: 7 day Sour
I have only had ONE ECY culture get sick, none of the other has ever gotten sick.

FOr the quick sour most I see are just a little more one dimensional. I have had plenty of aged ones that have the vomit/butryic acid
levifunk
05/12/14 05:29 PM  
Re: 7 day Sour
I do actually know what this is. I took issue with his use of the term "Vert Gueuze", and after our talk he changed it to "7 Day Sour".

Basically he is doing a turbid mash/sour mash hybrid. The "slims" are in reference to the turbid runnings you pull off during turbid mash. Other than that its a berliner weisse schedule.
Dan ABA
05/15/14 08:11 PM  
Re: 7 day Sour
Out of curiosity, what strain of Brett does he use?
Gail W
08/13/14 05:58 PM  
Re: 7 day Sour
I'm curious about that too, but I wanted to ask about this from the quoted artcle:

> (we reintroduce the Lacto post boil in case anyone wants to age the beer)

Why would aging with Brett not be enough? Is somebody thinking of the longer term evolution of a beer with Pedio and asserting that Lacto species do the same?
G117
10/10/14 11:34 AM  
Re: 7 day Sour
I believe the vomit like aroma/flavors common in sour mashing comes from clostridium infecting the mash in addition to the lactobacillus. It's hard to rush such a delicate process without getting more critters than you bargained for. However, in this case, even from the start a young gueuze seems to be an oxymoron...isn't a gueuze traditionally a blend of young and old lambics? The "American wild ale" is a wonderful thing, but I don't think we should blur the line between it's European predecessors.
Saison Man
11/03/14 05:00 PM  
Re: 7 day Sour
Dan and Gail,

The brett blend we use is: brux, drei, bouckaertii (equal parts). Lacto for both is hotside and ferm is delbrueckii, although we are going to try some batches with brevis soon (I'm liking the texture on it better).

For reference, this beer is not a berliner (as 'the great' Levi claims). We developed this recipe first and foremost to implement 'Royal Decree' procedures for producing lambic wort, and to learn how to do these procedures on the equipment we own. The beer is also brewed with aged hops, and when 7 Day is young you can see a decent level of cheesiness. We avoid pedio in the FV as this specific recipe is brewed for a quicker release, and we don't want problems with ropiness or bottle boogers.

As we continue to develop this project, phase II has already happened with a very limited beer named '365 day.' This is the same exact recipe as 7 Day, but aged for a full year on French oak chardonnay barrels. The goal of this phase was to take a look at how our lambic wort is aging, and the results after the first batch are delicious (the wort ages really nicely)! Phase III of this project is underway with our recently constructed Koelschip (first, and only koelschip in Colorado). In April of 2014 we brewed our first 2 100% spontaneous beers into that vessel, again using the same exact base recipe as 7 day and 365 Day. Thus far the 12 barrels we have aging that beer are progressing nicely, very consistent profiles to the lovely Allagash Koelschips. We do plan on blending 1,2, and 3 year old batches of that beer to follow exact procedures for producing traditional gueuze.

There was heavy criticism for originally using the term 'Vert Gueuze' for 7 Day Sour, and it's caused quite a misunderstanding about the long term goals/direction of this project.

Thanks everyone for posting to this thread

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