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PaulK
04/28/13 08:21 AM  
Brett on top of brett
So, there seems to be a consensus that fermentation with any given brett as the primary yeast yields a much cleaner result.

Likewise, that pitching brett in secondary will get you much more funk etc etc

So, question. Say one does a a primary ferment with brett trois. If one is then to use a fresh pitch of the same brett strain in secondary.... what happens?

Does the second pitch produce the more funky characteristics on top of whatever the primary pitch produced? Or do they have a chat with the veterans of the previously won sugar battle and decide to join them at the bottom and have a siesta?

sl8w
04/29/13 02:05 PM  
Re: Brett on top of brett
I don't think it works that way. I think re-pitching brett again will have limited if any impact. The extra sourness from a brett secondary fermentation is the result of the interplay of the brett with other yeasts. Eating the by-products of each other's fermentations, etc.

I haven't done exactly as you described, but I have done primary brett-only fermentations with multiple brett strains. Those beers were similar to my brett-only single strain beers, and not my more sour mixed bug fermentations.

Adam Mc
04/30/13 02:21 PM  
Re: Brett on top of brett
Theoretically, no. Somebody with real experience should chime in, but the reason why a brett secondary produces its character is because brett can take vinyl phenol, which is produced by Sacc. but not by Brett, and reduce it to ethyl phenol, which is the horse blanket funk. Brett doesn't have the vinyl phenol pathway, so it cannot then generate ethyl phenol. Sacc can't reduce vinyl phenol, so no funk. If you added vinyl phenol somehow to a 100% brett beer, then you'd evenutally get funk.
Austin KM
05/01/13 12:23 PM  
Re: Brett on top of brett
If you allow a Brett fermented beer to age, it will over time develop some funk. Also there is negligible if any sourness created by Brett. You need bacteria for acid production.

Interestingly, in my experience, pitching Brett with priming sugar into bottles, or into an underattenuated keg, (both creating an environment that is under pressure) produces a substantial funk within weeks, (see green flash's rayon vert)

PaulK
05/01/13 07:54 PM  
Re: Brett on top of brett
Thanks guys

Pretty much as I suspected. Might be worth splitting a batch at secondary sometime and doing an experiment.

I have a brew going at the moment that I was worried might lack in funk. It's a quick soured Flanders type thing. I basically did a quick sour with lacto, did a sour wort for a portion etc etc

I pitched a wyeast lacto starter and Brett lambicus (no starter) at the same time

It hard to know exactly, but it appears as though the lacto dropped the gravity quite a bit over the first day it two before the Brett kicked in.

So I guess theoretically, the Brett was not the primary yeast.

All the same it is most certainly not lacking in funk right now (at one week). I look forward to seeing how it develops over the next few weeks

PaulK
05/02/13 06:20 AM  
Re: Brett on top of brett
So on a different board someone brought up a good point.

Brett in primary does not attenuate to the same degree when used in primary as in secondary (in most cases).

Therefore there is a chance that if one used a fresh pitch of brett at secondary, that it would go after the harder to get to sugars. And being under more stress, will create more funk.

I think its definitely worth doing a split batch in the near future.

Mike T
05/02/13 04:49 PM  
Re: Brett on top of brett
My understanding is as Adam suggested. The difference in character isn't about stress, but precursors. Without a brewer's yeast fermentation there won't be the molecules there for full "classic" Brett character development. As 100% Brett beers age they do develop some aspects of the classic profile, but it is never as potent as a mixed fermentation. I don’t see a biological reason why Brett pitched after a 100% Brett fermentation would behave differently.
Luke
05/02/13 04:59 PM  
Re: Brett on top of brett
I do not agree that "any given brett as the primary yeast yields a much cleaner result". Sometimes this is true and sometimes not.

Read the Brettanomyces Brewing Transcript linked up top or Chad Yakobson's Powerpoint presentation.

Many factors including strain, grainbill, O2, and temp. can influence "funkiness" during primary fermentation with Brett.

TimT
05/03/13 02:00 AM  
Re: Brett on top of brett
I am not sure what I did to get the result. But when I did a couple of all brett beers with Brett L and B from wyeast both came out with a ton of character. In fact the Brett B one was pretty much disgusting as I went low on bittering and the sweet plus funk was not delicious. The only thing I did out of the norm was I used a lot of pure O2 on them as I was hoping to get some acid production. It did work out very well on the Brett L as it tastes like a very low acid flanders red. The other is the worst tasting beer I have ever made. It is used for a source of brett and a "here taste this beer" joke.
PaulK
05/03/13 06:37 AM  
Re: Brett on top of brett
Thanks for the info guys.

While i dont expect it to make much of a difference if any, I think i will still go ahead and do a split at secondary sometime.

These things are worth doing i reckon

Mike T
05/03/13 08:56 AM  
Re: Brett on top of brett
Luke, the transcript up top is 7 years old, there are lots of "I believe" sorts of statements in there that I don't think have stood the test of time.

In Chad's presentation he says:

"If it is “cleaner” Brettanomyces characteristics I’m after, subtle fruity aromas, or light clove with a slight tartness, then Primary fermentation with Brett would be the choice.

• If I’m after a more funky beer with stronger complex characteristics gained through extended aging, secondary fermentation would be the choice, possibly in a barrel."

I generally find that 100% Brett ferments give me a cleaner version of the same strain as a secondary fermenter. Although I pitch lots of cells, use moderate oxygenation, don't do anything weird to the mash etc. You certainly could manipulate those variables to change the result.

Luke
05/03/13 01:21 PM  
Re: Brett on top of brett
Mike T, the age of the transcript is irrelevant. I was merely citing it as an easy reference to descriptions of Brett-primaried beers that were described as having substantial funk.

I appreciate your attempts to bring some rigor to sour brewing, I just don't want people to think that Brett primaries will always give you "clean-tasting" beer.

As you point out, there's enough misinformation out there already.

PaulK
05/08/13 11:24 PM  
Re: Brett on top of brett
Luke, my earleir statement was not to say that brett primaried beers were clean, but cleaner. Emphasis on the "er". Obviously it would depend on a raft of variables.

I am currently 2 weeks into fermenting my "quick" sour/ flanders thing. Its is fuuuuuunky.

In saying that, I pitched lacto and brett L at the same time, so its not really the same thing as a brett only beer.

Still... it brings the funk.

 
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