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Gabe H
03/08/13 08:18 AM  
Different way to sour mash - really long acid rest
Instead of mashing as normal and then cooling the mash to sour, why not just dough in around 110, leave it to sour, and then continue with the mash?

I'm obviously no expert on brewing chemistry, so a simple explanation of why this is a dumb idea would be great. I'm guessing a really low mash pH must cause some problems.

Luke
03/08/13 09:34 AM  
Re: Different way to sour mash - really long acid
Amylase won't work well if pH gets below 5. Can cause thin beer and low head retention. Not sure what the advantage would be either?
TimT
03/08/13 12:16 PM  
Re: Different way to sour mash - really long acid
In last years CBC talk on Berliner weisse by the German fellow from VIB? (can't remember his name) he actually suggested that one of the secrets of getting head retention in the style was mashing just below 5, IIRC 4.9. Been meaning to try it but forgot last time.
Me
03/09/13 09:49 AM  
Re: Different way to sour mash - really long acid
Dont see many Berliners with head retention
reverseapachemaster
03/11/13 04:56 PM  
Re: Different way to sour mash - really long acid
In addition to conversion problems, in a sour mash you want the sugars available to the bacteria so you need conversion to occur. The bacteria may or may not be able to convert starches into sugars and then into acids but it would be a much longer process and may be driven by other bacteria on the grain that might produce less desirable flavors.

You can only get so much acidity out of an acid rest and it can take a long time just to drop ph a few tenths of a point. I'm not sure exactly how long it would take to get some decent sourness out of an extended acid rest but you're also creating an opportunity for some yeast and bacteria to start breaking down the starches and probably get some unpleasant character.

Nate P.
03/12/13 10:25 AM  
Re: Different way to sour mash - really long acid
http://sourbrewster.wordpress.com/tag/cbc/
brewinhard
03/12/13 06:49 PM  
Re: Different way to sour mash - really long acid
Agreed with the above posts, that you really need to do a saccharafication rest first to help create the sugars for the bacteria to quickly ferment and make your wort/mash sour.
Luke
03/12/13 11:13 PM  
Re: Different way to sour mash - really long acid
Thanks for the info Nate P.

It's interesting to hear more description of the technique.

However, I do observe success from lactic fermentation in these beers.

Science meets art?

reverseapachemaster
03/13/13 01:54 AM  
Re: Different way to sour mash - really long acid
You can measure the ph at the start of the sour mash and periodically throughout.
Gabe H
03/13/13 11:18 AM  
Re: Different way to sour mash - really long acid
I knew it was a bad idea, just wondered why. Probably could have looked in Learn to Brew....

Great link Nate. I'll try the kettle souring with grain next time.

shibolet
03/14/13 09:08 AM  
Re: Different way to sour mash - really long acid
after speaking with Jason Kahler of Solera Brewery after his talk on Berliner Weisse at the last NHC in Seatlle,

i too tried kettle souring (as apposed to sour mashing).

so far, my two trials have been failures. the beer was not sour enough and was just plain watery.

I mashed, and than sparged as usual,

heated the wort to 85C and held for about 15 min.

cooled the wort to 45C and added 200 gr of fresh acid malt (not crushed)

Insulated the kettle and let it sit.

the first time it soured for around 30 hours and was not sour. the second time i let it go for 50 hours but was still not sour enough.

after the souring, i boiled for 15 minutes with minimal hops, fermented with dry US05 yeast and that bottle conditioned.

i will be going back to trying sour mashing. my first BW was great, my second sour mashed BW was awful. i'm not giving up.

Mike T
03/14/13 11:36 AM  
Re: Different way to sour mash - really long acid
TImL, it was Professor Burghard Meyer. Great talk!

I had decent good luck with souring the wort. I made a sour starter first with the grain, which both got the Lacto going, and inhibited any nasty bugs that would have come along for the ride otherwise. Result was a bit bland, but I really liked the 100% Brett fermented variant I did.

My process: http://www.themadfermentationist.com/2010/07/sour-old-ale-quick-oud-bruin.html

 
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