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Author Replies
levifunk
02/14/13 03:43 PM  
Sour Cider pt2
Tried resurrecting this thread, but maybe its too old?

http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1256822912

Regardless, I'm thinking about doing a panel of 100% brett fermented ciders. A few single strains, a few multiple strains, and a few of both with lacto/pedio added.

I'm trying to research the results of other home brewers' experience with 100% brett fermented ciders. Any input?

levifunk
02/14/13 04:01 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
Here is the list of fermentations I came up with:

1.) 100% Brett B

2.) 100% Brett C

3.) 100% Brett L

4.) 100% Brett Drie

5.) Brett B,C,L

6.) 100% Brett B & LAB

7.) 100% Brett C & LAB

8.) 100% Brett L & LAB

9.) 100% Brett Drie & LAB

10.)Brett B,C,L & LAB

("LAB" is Lactic Acid Bacteria, which is the lacto/pedio)

Let me know if you've done one of these and the results.

Any of these sound particularly exciting?

Any of them sound like trouble?

Any other fermentation ideas?

SteveG
02/15/13 10:16 AM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
I have a little experience. The cider crowd is basically very down on the idea, so naturally after coming home from CiderDays a couple years ago I decided to try. I went 100% Brett C, it did not come out awful but it was not what I would present as a success. I wasn't willing to settle for going back with proof that such a cider could be just drinkable. It left me wondering if cider must is really the right environment for brett. Someday though I do plan a follow up, I'd like to try it on a gallon on some of ice cider must. That's hard to make, I'd not want to risk more than a gallon considering how awesome the D42 versions can be. But I am curious.
levifunk
02/15/13 12:14 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
Yea, cider crowd is fairly uneducated when it comes to brett, and a lot of them are from the wine world where they have been trained to hate brett.

What was the 100% Brett C version like? What was good/bad about it? I assume it fermented very dry or did you stop it? Any notes or comments you can think of would be appreciated.

Tom
02/17/13 03:52 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
I currently have a Brett cider going.

It was a mix of honey crisp and Macintosh apples.

I did not kill off wild yeast with camden just pitched brett c with some nutrient and pectin enzyme. I also added a half pound of malto dextrine for the Brett to chew on. Mine fermented out to .996 bone dry.

I Was trying to go something similar to isastegi, it is still sitting in secondary but at the last taste it turned out pretty good to what I was expecting.

It does have its own unique character. I wish I had some more funk to it but will probably add a little more funky Brett when keggng to let naturally carb.

I threw in just a touch of oak and has been sitting in secondary. I wanted to leav in primary for the entire time but needed the carboy.

I will definitely be trying more Brett in my yearly cider in the future. This is my first time trying Brett besides just leaving the wild yeast ferment. It woul be interesting to kill off wild yeast an do all Brett to see the difference.

It is defiantly more of the character I was looking for in cider than the standard sach has always put out.

levifunk
02/17/13 06:44 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
Thanks Tom. Awesome stuff. What kind of flavors did it create? How long has it been fermenting? .996! very cool.

I don't think there is any need to add camden. Pitched commercial yeast will out compete any of the wild yeast that may have gotten in. Also, since you are doing 100% brett C, what is the point of malto dextrine addition?

Tom
02/20/13 07:56 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
I don't have exact notes but it was in primary for 4 months or so. It is still in secondary now.

It was down to around 1.004 or so pretty quick, then I didnt check for a while so not sure how long it took to drop to .996. Every cider I have made always goes below 1.000 regular sach or bugs/brett.

I did both a couple years ago, added campden to kill of wild yeast and pitch sach and then one with no campden with wild yeast and sach there was a definate difference so killing off the wild yeast will have a flavor impact in my one time experience with that. Both were good but the one with no campden just had a little more rustic more pronunced apple character. Pitch rates/nutrient may play a roll in flavor impact to?

Malto dextrine was just to add some more for the brett to chew on. Dont have a side by side but it did add to the body/mouthfeel especially for being .996. But I have not tried it in a while either, so we will see.

Tom
02/20/13 08:05 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
Some crappy tasting notes from a couple months ago which was my first tasting

Crystal clear, tart, green apples, pears, slight pineapple, slight green olives, acidic, Brine, some funk, hay, musty, a definate something that I ant pin point from the honey crisp apple.

Some lambic qualities, lingering c02 in solution.

More funk coming from wild yeats?

I tried it a few weeks ago and seemed like it was going through a wierd change, got a little watery and everything was kind of subdued back. Still good just seems like everything went back a couple notches. Next time I do a tasting I will let you know.

levifunk
02/21/13 10:44 AM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
thanks for the insight Tom. Might have to do a Malodextrine version to compare with the others.
Tom
02/21/13 03:44 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
THis is my first time adding MD to a cider, in the early stages it surely helped with the mouthfeel/body, and not being so so dry at .996

We will see if it holds up

Ethan
03/26/13 12:06 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
I've done a couple spontaneously fermented ciders. Came out very similar to Sarasola, but with more funk. There are some weirder notes, but after a couple sips your palette gets acclimated, and then it's quite good. About to bottle one with plums, one with oak, and one with blueberries and oak.
SteveG
03/26/13 02:01 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
>>Yea, cider crowd is fairly uneducated when it comes to brett, and a lot of them are from the wine world where they have been trained to hate brett.<<

To be fair its not really that they are uneducated. True, many are from a wine world that shuns brett, but many are also homebrewers - no small part of that population feels the same way. It isn't enough to say that taste isn't for everybody ... it really isn't for most. I've pushed brett here for years, but I personally think it ruins a cider.

levifunk
03/27/13 01:17 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
Well, that's what I'm looking to find out. Here is the final list of batches we are doing:

1 Brett drie

2 Brett custersianus

3 Brett nanus

4 Brett lambicus

5 Brett bruxellensis

6 Brett anomulus/claussenii

7 Brett fantome

8 Saccharomyces paradoxus

9 Brett Blend

10 Brett Blend and oenococcus

11 Brett Blend with maltodextrin addition.

Tom
03/27/13 01:38 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
I have mine naturally carbing in the keg with a little more brett from ECY as I type. Should be ready soon.

Sampled a little when I put in the keg and was happy with it. Nailed the aroma to Itsaigei, which is what I waa going for. Need to pick up another bottle to compare flavors

Gabe H
03/27/13 02:57 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
Levi, where did you get Fantome strain? Do you know if its the same strain that's in ECY03? I asked ECY on FB if it was available separately and it's not, so I'm guessing you cultured it.
Al B
03/27/13 04:05 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
I will be interested on how the paradoxus performs.

S. paradoxus has the ability to partially breakdown malic acid (some strains up to 38%) as well as pectinolytic activity, two traits not normally found in S. cerevisiae yeasts.

S. paradoxus strains have also been reported to have pleasant aromatic profiles in wines when inoculated on their own in musts.

levifunk
04/01/13 04:09 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
And we're off:

http://funkfactorybrewing.blogspot.com/2013/04/cider-fermentation-panel-yeast-pitched.html

SteveG
04/04/13 12:57 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
wow man, that is a heck of a lineup.
levifunk
05/20/13 12:35 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
Here is an update on the results of this experiment:

http://funkfactorybrewing.blogspot.com/2013/05/cider-fermentation-panel-tasting.html

TOm
05/20/13 09:42 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
I have mine kegged up, it was with brett C.

It is still going through some changes so I have not had any in a while. THey watery thing you mentioned was on mine a few different times it has come and gone 2 or 3 times.

Would be cool to do a swap of the brett C if you wanted to to compare

levifunk
05/21/13 11:25 AM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
@Tom - that would be cool. It will be a bit before mine get bottled/carbed.
Tom
05/21/13 11:41 AM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
Mine was fresh pressed with a mix of hiney crisp and macintosh.

mine is sitting on the fridge in a keg now. I might take it back out and see if it will change more to

SteveG
05/22/13 11:33 AM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
>>The base cider we used was intentionally a neutral and lacking flavor.<<

levi, this was the cider you produced via keeving, yeah? If I have that right, to what degree would you say did the keeving process contribute to the lack of flavor?

levifunk
05/22/13 04:23 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
No, this is separate from the keeving project. This juice came from a pack house. The keeved juice I pressed myself from the apples at the orchard.
SteveG
05/23/13 09:56 AM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
Ho! I think I had a misconception here. I thought you'd taken the post-fermented keeved cider then added bretts to that. No? So then is the keeved cider still just pure keeved cider? Did that get bottled up?
levifunk
05/23/13 11:30 AM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
haha. Keeved cider will be bottled up in a few weeks. That is keeved cider fermented with a lambic blend of yeast. Extremely difficult/expensive to do, but amazing results.

The brett cider project is just pasteurized cider (to remove any native yeast) and single strains of brett. This was just to figure out how brett behaves in cider and to learn which strains were the best. We're planning on taking this information and doing a larger commercial batch this fall.

I did find it pretty interesting that strains such as brux and lambicus, whose flavor contribution is fairly understood in beer, kicked off a completely different flavor profile in cider. Brux producing sweet nectarine? I would have never guessed that.

SteveG
05/23/13 11:46 AM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
I found one brett beer in a swap (I can think of no commercial examples) that had a strong expression as peach. Not a huge leap from nectarine, at least in the ball park.

I'm still dialing in ice cider but I've made a lot of progress. My first 3 attempts I was only able to get the must to around 1.080. My 4th attempt I tried something new and hit 1.119 with very encouraging end results. My most recent I dialed in the icing process and actually overshot to about 1.150 (wanted 1.135). The yeast could only go so far despite a couple attempts to give it a boost, and I did not want to go as far as a champagne yeast. So I have one now that is sweeter than I think is optimal but that said its still a real nice taste. When the keeved cider is ready would you be interested in a swap?

levifunk
05/23/13 11:59 AM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
Absolutely.

What are you fermenting your iced ciders with?

SteveG
05/26/13 10:33 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
D42. For regular ciders I often get a couple cups of fresh pressed cider to start up, but given the effort in making ice cider must I'd never risk natural yeasts. It takes me weeks to work up the must.

BTW, I had a bottle yesterday, first since bottling. I think you're in for a treat. It was a bit sweeter than I'd like for ice cider, but that really mellowed out. Use the contact us link in the left menu to get a hold of me, we'll work it out.

Tim in Albion
02/09/14 10:38 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
This is amazing, never thought I'd find a whole thread on Brett ciders. I make cider from my own orchard, which includes a lot of cider apples we planted about 15 years ago. For a long time I could not figure out what that funky flavor was in my ciders, neither sour nor bitter... and wasn't even sure whether I liked it or not. Then I went to Belgium and tried a Gueuze - aha!

I use Sacch yeasts but also get some wild character, including the Brett (which we seem to have in relative abundance here). I'd be happy to share my techniques for this if anybody is interested. It has been fascinating to see the different responses people have when tasting some of my ciders - there have been some batches that I thought were undrinkably Bretty but others thought were wonderful!
levifunk
02/12/14 06:45 PM  
Re: Sour Cider pt2
@Tim

I would love to hear about your techniques. I have tried and tried to get sacch and brett to naturally ferment together in cider, but as of yet have found it extremely difficult.
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