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Nick P.
08/28/12 05:53 PM  
Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
I have a buddy wondering about souring his 100% brett beer by adding Pedio to it as it's sitting at 1.014 right now. What would you recommend?

Has anyone used Pedio as a sole souring bacteria for a beer with success? If so, how did you use it?

I told him to re-brew it and add Lacto and Pedio into primary.

Gordon A
08/28/12 11:11 PM  
Re: Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
Don't see why it wouldn't work. Lacto's a bit easier to work with since it's (less) sensitive to oxygen and doesn't go ropey, but the pedio that I have used seems to have a high alcohol tolerance. (It's a Bugfarm cake that I've reused through some high OG beers- it instantly goes ropey on contact with beer).
Luke
08/29/12 09:23 AM  
Re: Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
Well, you can make beer with it, but I'm not sure it will taste very good. Worth experimenting though.

You often hear that Pedio will make diacetyl, and therefore should be used in combination with Brett. Just google "Pedio diacetyl" as there are tons of threads around about this.

Also, Pedio + Lacto will produce a lot of lactic acid (duh!) that by themselves I think will come off as a very "one note" low-complexity sour. Brett can also convert lactic acid into delicious esters.

All that together you could try primary with Pedio + Lacto. Taste it. Then after you clean the sour, butterscotch puke off the flavor, secondary or bottle-condition with some Brett.

Smokinghole
08/29/12 06:10 PM  
Re: Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
You can get rope from strains of lactobacillus also just so you guys know. Its just that the common L. brevis strains tend to not produce the exopolysaccharide.
Paul V
08/29/12 06:43 PM  
Re: Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
Currently have a Brett Brux/Pedio belgian single that has been going for a year. It has picked up a lot of complexity despite the simple grain bill and culture. You won't get the same amount of complexity pitching it this late in the game with a Brett primary - but it would still have some nice acidity to it with enough time.
Luke
08/29/12 07:24 PM  
Re: Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
Good idea Paul V. I'm adding one of those to my brew list.

Can you comment on the acidity or perceived sourness?

Alex L
08/29/12 11:52 PM  
Re: Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
I did a 5 gallon batch of 100% brett ferment in order to inoculate a barrel. during the first couple days of fermentation the blow off tube blew off and a couple of fruit flies got in. I chose not to use that batch for the barrel but didn't want to dump it so I added a packet of pedio about 5 months after I brewed it. I'm probably gonna let it go for a year or so .
Paul V
08/30/12 05:46 PM  
Re: Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
What is wrong with a few fruit flies?

The acidity is very smooth on the Brett B/ Pedio beer. Not as sharp as with lacto only brews. The Brett L / Lacto belgian single I have going has come a lot further in the same amount of time as far as acidity or perceived sourness.

Trying to do pure culture pitches with Brett/Pedio/Lacto will leave your beer less complex than if you have a community of yeast/bacteria all together. This is the reason Cantillon and Fantome are far more complex than American Wild Ales or Saisons.

Luke
08/30/12 07:10 PM  
Re: Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
Ha! on the fruit fly beers. It's happened to me and I got really worried only to find that it didn't seem to affect anything.

Side note -- an interesting thing to do would be brew a lager really high in diacetyl (e.g. German lager yeast) and then to secondary with Brett without resting/racking.

Jeffb
08/31/12 12:34 AM  
Re: Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
Fruit flies often carry acetobacter = acetic acid

Luke
08/31/12 03:37 AM  
Re: Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
Yes Jeffb, acetobacter are a concern. "Fruit flies" carry a lot of other shit as well. The point is that everyone needs to balance the risks and rewards. Don't be stupid. Homebrewers will usually accept the risk of "a few fruit flies", because the alternative of dumping has zero value.

Would you dump a 5 gl batch of Flanders Red because fruit flies got into the brew kettle? No

What about into the secondary of 100 gl batch of American Lager that you are intending to sell commercially? Maybe yes if your business depends on clean lager.

Contamination is everywhere in everything unless you brew in an isolated quarantine. Be as anal as you'd like, but please realize that it's a "how much" rather than "if" question.

Gordon A
09/02/12 12:33 AM  
Re: Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
Smokinghole, that's certainly true re: lacto rope, but even though we're in bug country here we're still talking pretty well-known strains and characteristics. I think it's fair to say that pedio often has a ropey stage and lacto typically does not.
Luke
09/02/12 10:56 AM  
Re: Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
@Gordon, Smokinghole

Does the ropiness you each are talking about go away with time? I'm curious if some last a longer than others. There are probably many contributing factors though that make it hard to say.

This discussion reminded me of an excerpt from the A Liddil Lambic lesson,

As opposed to Cantillon, "Boon also clarifies the old beer prior to blending. This gives a bottled product that is reasonably clear and does not develop ropiness."

I would assume the ropiness they are trying to avoid comes from Pedio?

Smokinghole
09/02/12 03:31 PM  
Re: Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
Ropiness or exopolysaccharide formation comes from both Pediococcus and Lactobacillus. However in the wild brewing side of home brewing it has been accepted as lacto doesn't produce rope and pedio does. This is true for the yeast lab catalog strains available. That does not apply to some lacto strains potentially acquired through the air/grain. I do believe that pedio will produce rope in all strains, but that might not be true.

I had a no boil belgian wit go ropy probably from some high temperature tolerant bacteria. I had split the batch in half between boil with 25ibus and prehopped no boil wort (brought up to 185F). Then I added a the white labs lacto culture and left it go for a few days. At that point the unhopped portion started to smell like horrible sulfur and rotten corn. I have left it sit since I made it back in Feb I think and blended it with some of the hopped sacch fermented half then added brett. It has lost the ropiness and I think it tastes fairly good. I am actually looking into bottling at this point as the gravity is at .997 last I checked.

ChrisF
09/03/12 09:51 PM  
Re: Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
great thread.

re: finishing a lager with brett to remove diacetyl,

can anyone report on the behavior of brett at lager temps?

Luke
09/04/12 12:11 AM  
Re: Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
Sorry ChrisF. I was only thinking of using Brett to remove diatectyl during barrel aging (i.e. room temp). I'll report back if we get results though...
brewinhard
09/08/12 12:16 PM  
Re: Souring a Brett beer with just Pedio?
Chris-

I have repeatedly aged stronger saisons in a corny keg with various brett strains (Brux, L, and Fantome dregs) in my basement which got down to low 50's for several mos during the coldest part of the winter. With that being said, cool aging/fermenting with brett in secondary seems to produce cleaner, less farmyard funk than warmer temps most use. In fact, I much preferred the more subtle brett at cooler temps 50-60F rather than at 60-70F.

You could use brett to remove diacetyl in a finished lager, but then you really wont have a lager anymore. Your best bet would be to let your lager warm up to low ale temps (low 60's) and pitch a small healthy active starter of ale or lager yeast to clean up the remaining diacetyl provided you want to try to maintain the lager's character.

 
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