Welcome to the homeBBBrew board!
Like the BBB, the homeBBBrew board is not a club, just a place to talk about making beer. Is there a swap you would like to see happen? If we can find a few others who have something similar then lets do it!

NO SPECIFIC REASON FOR THIS LINK...
I just really like the work levifunk is doing!

PASSWORD PROTECTION: READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!
YOUR BBB USERNAME AND PASSWORD WILL NOT WORK ON THIS BOARD! If you want to post, you need to read this.

HomeBBBrewBoard
HotLinks!
Brettanomyces Brewing
E-Symposium Transcript!

Trouble making Trappists?
Discover Liquid Candy Syrup!
See what color impact to expect from liquid candy.

Search for:
Author Replies
Happy Feet
06/18/12 08:37 PM  
Classic Saison
Hello

I would like to make a 40 L 10 US gal. batch of Classic Saison this weekend using wyeast 3724. I would like to make a beer close to the the roots of a pre industrial Dupont beer. What suggestions do you have for malt, hops, starting and finishing gravity, mashing and fermenting temperatures?

Thanks for the help in advance!

Happy Feet

ChrisF
06/19/12 08:12 PM  
Re: Classic Saison
my advice would be to read Farmhouse Ales by Phil Markowski, if you haven't already.

Happy Feet
06/19/12 08:25 PM  
Re: Classic Saison
Oh I have :)

Looking for the forums best suggestions to this classic. What do people love about a classic saison, what has been working for the members?

HF

beerhog
06/20/12 05:22 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
my best saison so far was 100% belgian pils and 25ish ibu of homegrown hallertau at sixty mins and frmented on 3724. i kept the gravity down to 1050 for a more refreshing summer beer and i loved it. im not sure how classi it really is but it worked for me and once my hops grow again in another 8 months i will do it again.
Smokinghole
06/20/12 09:29 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
I think a classic pre-industrial saison would be fermented with a mixed culture. It would probably have brett and they may have bacteria as well. The grist would likely be some pale malt and 20-30% of a raw cereal grain. I don't think the hop type is as important as it being a low aa type. I quickly burned through a pound of French Strisselspalt in saisons at 2.4%aa.

My grist right now consists of:

Pils 65%

Spelt/Rye/Wheat 25%

Vienna 10%

ECY03

25-30ibus with large late additions.

Trevorjn
06/20/12 11:54 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
Smokinghole said pretty much what I was going to say. I, too, have burned through Strisselspalt for bittering and aroma in saisons and they come out wonderful. Mixed culture would be best (some accounts of old saison compare them to gueuze) and some cereal grains like rye, spelt, corn/maize, wheat or oats.
brewinhard
06/20/12 05:13 PM  
Re: Classic Saison
I have a rye saison going with about 2.5 pounds of rye malt in the grist along with german pilsner, and a light touch of munich malt to around 1.060 OG.

With 3724 I HIGHLY recommend utilizing a low mash temp (think like 147F) as well as adding some simple sugars to help the beer dry out. As far as fermentation temps are concerned I have had my best results letting the beer ferment at 68F for 48 hrs, then ramping up a few degrees per day until I hit at least 80F. Let it ride at 80F until your beer attenuates properly. Sometimes this takes up to 5 or so weeks, so be patient.

Rousing the yeast by swirling the fermenter helps to keep it in suspension to finish the job. I have also noted faster fermentation times with subsequent repitching of this strain. YMMV.

Happy Feet
06/21/12 12:18 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
Excellent suggestions! I like the idea of adding some cereal grains, thinking about 15% with wheat and oats. What are your thoughts on adding a large late hop addition? Or should I just do a single addition at 60 minutes? Will mash at the lower end for sure. In regards to ramping up the fermentation temp. I have had success starting at 68 deg until i see active fermentation and then bringing it up to 80 to 85. I thin I saw something that said they bring it u to 90+ anyone heard of this?

Thanks!

Trevorjn
06/21/12 02:02 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
Dupont gets their fermentation up to 90+ F, I have done this before with good results.

Traditional saison hopping rates, according to Farmhouse Ales, are 1.1-1.8 Lbs of hops per 26 gallons of beer, 2/3 for bittering and 1/3 for flavor. This comes out to 3.5-5.7 oz per 5 gallons (total). The hops used historically were low AA%, 2-4%.

Smokinghole
06/21/12 07:07 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
I also do not use simple sugars in my beers either because of the mixed cultures I use to ferment my saisons. I mash at 148 for about 30 min then I drain off enough wort to heat and raise my mash temp to 158 and then I don't do a mash out heating step, I just denature in the kettle. The brett in yeast mix brings my saisons down to 1.003-1.005 at bottling. I prime for 3 volumes with sugar and allow the brett to take it where ever it will go beyond three.
Dankbrewer
06/21/12 02:33 PM  
Re: Classic Saison
I almost always do the traditional Saison mash that I learned from the book Farmhouse Ales and I get an amazingly rocky head, even on 100% pilsner beers! I'd highly recommend doing that if you have the capability.

Traditional Saison Mash Schedule

112 degrees for 20 minutes

136 degrees for 25 minutes

145 for 30 minutes

153 for 15 minutes

I also love using Amarillo and French Strisselspalt hops late in the boil! Great combo to complement the yeast typically!

Happy Feet
06/22/12 09:47 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
How late in the boil do you add the last addition of hops? I have some Amarillo, when did you add it?
Happy Feet
06/22/12 09:56 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
Another Question: I have not used oats in a mash before, can I use rolled oats? Also, do I need to cook them first to gelatinize then add to the main mash? Same for spelt and raw wheat?

Thanks!

brewinhard
06/22/12 10:23 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
Late hop additions are acceptable for a classic saison. Not so sure that american hops would keep it "classic" though. But you are a homebrewer and can do what ya want. Traditionally, more noble hops are used (hallertau, saaz, etc).

In my last rye saison I added 1.25 oz of Czech Saaz at 0 min. to complement the earthiness of the rye and the spice of the yeast. And yes I have let my fermentations rise into the high 90's before. I thought I killed my yeast, but low and behold the beer dried out, and when I repitched the yeast it took off like gangbusters even in a 1.070 wort!

Happy Feet
06/23/12 01:18 PM  
Re: Classic Saison
What are the IBU's of Saison Dupont?
Almighty
06/27/12 06:02 PM  
Re: Classic Saison
Happy feet - Yes, you can use Rolled Oats directly in your mash(I just did this, see below). Wheat is gelatinized at mash temps so that can go directly also and there is a bit of a debate on spelt, but it appears the gelatinization temperature is also at normal mash temps.

Saison Dupont appears to be around 25 IBUs.

And for hops I prefer to split my batch and dry hop with different varieties. My new project this summer is matching Saison yeast flavors with different hop aromas.

This is a great thread and good timing. I have been doing a lot of reading lately on the style and boiled down most of my research into a couple blog posts:

Part 1 Malts, Hops, Mash http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2012/06/great-saison-experiment-8-strains-part.html

Part 2 Yeast, Fermentation, Water

http://jeffreycrane.blogspot.com/2012/06/great-saison-experiment-8-strains-part_27.html

Happy Feet
07/04/12 05:45 PM  
Re: Classic Saison
Thanks for all the help!

My brew day went well, I decided to keep the recipe a simple: 95% pilsner malt and 5% white table sugar

Two hop additions: Styrian at the beginning and Hallertauer and Saaz for the last two minutes. 31 IBU total

SG:1.054 FG: 1.007

Fermentation temp: Started at 72 F and raised to a high of 93 F Most of the time it sat at 83-86F Fermented out in 6 days

Smelled spicy and Dupont like at racking

All is Happy :)

Shibolet
07/05/12 08:56 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
i'm fermenting my first ever Saison with WLP 568.

i let the temp go as high is it would naturally (ambient at 25C, fermentation up to 28.4C).

it's been fermenting for five days and looks to be quite done.

how long should i give it until packaging and does this beer benefit from age or should i keg and drink it soon?

Almighty
07/05/12 06:22 PM  
Re: Classic Saison
Shibolet - Saisons are great that way. I like them both fresh or aged. If aging you should make it worth your wait be adding a bit of Brett at bottling. If adding Brett, you will want to make sure your beer is very dry (<1.004) or add Brett and bulk age. Either way when you bottle, I suggest bottling in thick bottles and planning around 3 Volumes of CO2.
Shibolet
07/06/12 02:38 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
thanks Almighty !

so i think i'll keg half the batch and bottle half in thick 750's. i'll add some brett dregs to the bottling bucket. should i add priming sugar or just let the brett do it's thing on the remaining gravity points?

Almighty
07/06/12 11:12 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
That really depends on how much sugar is left. For every gravity point drop you can get about a Volume of CO2. So what was you're finishing gravity? And how long has it been stable with just the Sacc yeast?
Smokinghole
07/07/12 07:52 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
I always went with each gravity point contributing .5 volumes or 1 plato being about 2 volumes. I do this with my saisons since all I make are brett saisons and when they get far enough I will bottle them up with about a volume to 1.5 volume for the brett to go. I prime the beer to about 2-3 volume depending on my residual extract. This lets me get the beer in bottles, brew another, and I achieve my 3.5-4 volume target CO2.
Ross
07/07/12 09:53 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
I believe that Dupont bottles their Saison with some residual extract remaining and will adjust with sugar additions based on gravity at time of bottling. I usually let the brew completely ferment and will even transfer to a secondary for awhile, sometimes a few months. The latest saison has a brett strain added in the secondary with some French oak cubes.
Happy Feet
07/07/12 11:36 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
Was going to prime the corny keg for half my batch. was thinking to 3 volumes co2 How much reg sugar would I need for 19 L Would this be the same amount for bottling? What would be the volume of CO2 in a Saison Dupont?

Also, going to start a new thread on super saison as I will use the yeast from this batch to make something similiar to Dupont Moinette Blond.

Happy Feet
07/31/12 12:56 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
This Saison has turned out fantastic. hops are bang on, yeast profile is perfect.

Thanks for all the help!

shibolet
11/05/12 09:17 AM  
Re: Classic Saison
just a quick update:

my first saison was amazing!

the WLP568 is really great. fermented to a very dry finish.

the half i bottled with brett was wonderful after about three months and now its all gone.

brewing again tomorrow, will use ECY 03 this time.

shibolet
11/08/12 03:29 PM  
Re: Classic Saison
just pitched ECY03 Farmhouse Brett into a "four grain saison" (OG 1.055) . how long should i expect this fermentation to last?
Smokinghole
11/08/12 08:48 PM  
Re: Classic Saison
My first pitch of ECY03 took 4 months to attenuate. Then from there on it moved MUCH faster. I was looking at 1.5-4 month fermentations for it to get to a level where I'm comfortable to bottle with brett bringing up the carbonation a bit.
 
Return to Forum

Post a Reply
Your Name:
Subject:
Message Body:


 
   
Username

Password

Around Bruges in 80 Beers: 2nd Edition

Around London in 80 Beers

Around Brussels in 80 Beers


Babblebelt contributors in attendance: