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Author Replies
troy
08/12/11 10:18 AM  
Cascade Brewing Barrel House
I went there recently with a couple of friends and drank quite a few of their sour beers. The intense fruit flavor and aroma of these beers, as well as the clean, tart souring are inspirational. I am not looking to clone any of these beers, but just wondering if anyone has a lead on how to achieve a similar amount of fruit and sourness.

Here is what I think I know about their process. Standard sacch fermentation in stainless, transfer to a barrel. Add lactobacilllus? Months and months in the barrel. Add a ton of fruit.

By the way, two of the beers that I felt stood out as unique were the Apricot and the Vine (white wine grape).

tankdeer
08/12/11 11:31 AM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
Your estimate is pretty much what I know of their process. They don't use brett in their normal lineup, although I think they are starting to play with it a little. I would guess they have a fairly strong lacto strain, in order to get the sourness they have.

You're spot on about Apricot and Vine - two of their best. I need to head back down the barrel house, haven't been there in months.

Mike T
08/12/11 11:38 AM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
I did some research on their process for an article I wrote for BYO a couple months back (should be in the next issue). They have a house culture of Lacto, Ron wouldn't let slip where it came from, but said you can harvest it from the bottles (No Brett except an experiment or two). It must be quite a strain to make so much acid, especially in such high gravity beers. Someone offered to culture some for me from a bottle of Vine I have in the cellar, I'll be interested to see how if it works the same for me.

For fruit it depends on the beer, but for the most part they add whole fruit to the beer in tanks after they take it out of the barrels. For Vine they use juice IIRC. Time on the fruit is ~4 months.

B-Dub
08/12/11 12:11 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House

I was at the Barrel House a few weeks ago. The 2009 Sang Rouge was really nice.

Sounds like they only add lacto in the barrel to very clean beer; ie: no yeast or trub. IBU's are in the low range with a high SG and some residual sugars. They like the beers to have some sugars left over when the lascto is done to balance the beers. I would suspect the beers hit a very low pH and that is what stops the lacto and leaves some sugars.

Ron and Curtis do a great job. What I really appreciate about their beers is how different they are when compared to other sour or wild ale made in the US.

Mike T
08/12/11 02:34 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
"Sounds like they only add lacto in the barrel to very clean beer; ie: no yeast or trub."

Did they say if they did anything to remove the yeast (fine, filter, cold crash etc...)?

Sadly I was out there last summer right before the barrel room opened, but the brewers were nice enough to pull we some samples and talk process for a bit.

B-Dub
08/12/11 11:04 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
I would lean towards cold crash, as I do not believe they have a filter.

<<Sadly I was out there last summer right before the barrel room opened>>

You might have to head back during OBF next year and hit Puckerfest.

Cheers,

BW

JeffB
08/13/11 11:44 AM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
Does anyone one know what temp they hold the barrel room at? I figure if it is on the warm side they may get higher lactic acid development at a faster rate.

I would love to try this technique since my berliner and my Gose tend to be nice and sour. I may change my malt bill and then brew a beer using just a clean sacc yeast followed by an extended aging on oak chips and lacto.

Tank-I bet your berliner with some fruit (other than blueberries) would probably be pretty close.

Has anyone grew some of the Cascade dregs up?

mybluecyan
08/14/11 11:43 AM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
It would be cool if someone like Al would plate some Cascade dregs, and see what's living in those beers. I suspect it's more then sacch and lacto, because it seems tough to keep wild barrels free of other bugs.
tankdeer
08/15/11 12:06 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
<<Tank-I bet your berliner with some fruit (other than blueberries) would probably be pretty close.>>

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing. I really need to re-brew that too.

Mike T
08/16/11 12:21 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
Jeff, at the brewery the barrels were just scattered around the brewhouse (no special temp control, although Portand isn't too extreme) at the new facility they are held in the 60s.
JeffB
08/25/11 01:27 AM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
So I have been thinking about this thread a bunch and I think I am going to try and brew a beer in the Cascade "method". I am going to build a base beer something simple, like a saison or belgian pale recipe, hop it lightly, pitch a bunch of lacto and US-05, much like I do for my Berliners. I will let it sour up, dry hop it and then add some fruit and see what happens.

I am debating wether to add the lacto alone for a few days and then let the US-05 do its work or let it ferment clean for a few days then add Lacto. Anyone have any ideas or insight on the order of the yeast/bacteria?

In addition I plan to do a full boil to see if I can reduce some of the funky "vomit-like" aromas in no boil Berliners.

tankdeer
08/26/11 01:03 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
<<In addition I plan to do a full boil to see if I can reduce some of the funky "vomit-like" aromas in no boil Berliners.>>

And here I thought you liked my Berliner. ;)

JeffB
08/26/11 02:08 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
Tank, I love your Berliner. But I think other sour styles may not be as great with the "vomit" aroma.

mybluecyan
10/08/11 09:55 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
Does Michael 'mad fermentationist' post here? I remember a while back he tweeted a friend had plated cascade dregs to isolate or identify the bugs used to sour their barrel aged beers. Wondering if he had an update on this?
Mike T
10/11/11 11:57 AM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
Sadly UPS screwed up the delivery so now I have the vials back... Planning on just USPSing them (minus the “thank you” bottles of beer I had included) to avoid the apartment delivery issue.
Almighty
01/06/12 01:27 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
So have we figured out what are in the dregs yet?

Is it only lacto or do they bottle condition with another yeast?

mybluecyan
01/06/12 11:49 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
I'm sure they bottle condition with sacch. but the dregs will sour a beer. From my few experiments using cascade dregs in 1 gallon batches, I don't think they use Pedio or Brett. Seems to be only lacto. I've never seen a pellicle or any yeast on top. Just super clean clear beer which sours over time.

Still, I'd love someone with a scope to plate some.

smokinghole
01/07/12 09:34 AM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
If someone sent me some I could scope/plate them. The only issue is that I don't have the ability to do anaerobic cultures. I have an anaerobic chamber at school but we don't have the 02 scrubbing packs. The best I could do is take the chamber and flush it with CO2 or N2.
JMcG
01/07/12 05:53 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
Maybe a stab culture would work. Ive gotten Pedio to grow that way. Think I saw somewhere they only use Lacto to sour (?MT's article).
Smokinghole
01/08/12 08:30 AM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
I can grow it in a liquid culture at 37C then transfer that to a plate and overlay the streaked surface with more agar. I think I could do it that way as long as I let the agar cool down enough just before it starts to solidify in the bottle. I bet if I stuck the bottle in a water bath at 40C I could easily over lay it. Then if I have a nice colony I can lift the layered agar off and pick my colony.
B-Dub
01/08/12 11:52 AM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
They only use lacto and whatever they pick up from the wine and Bourbon barrels. No need to plate it.

BW

Mike T
01/09/12 11:04 AM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
Really? I find it hard to believe they get that much acidity without pitching anything. Source?
B-Dub
01/09/12 10:06 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
I talked with Ron and Curtis, the brewers. Mash high and add lacto to clean beer in the barrel. Like I said, I think they pick up some other bugs from time to time, but the sourness is from the lacto.

BW

Mike T
01/10/12 09:31 AM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
Sorry, I thought you were saying that they pick the lacto up from the barrel. Did they say if they filter/fine the beer before going into the barrel?
D-Dub
01/10/12 02:51 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
No filtering or fining is used far as I could tell or that they would let on to.

Almighty
01/10/12 04:44 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
Thanks for the update. I haven't had a chance to try any Cascade dregs yet. It's good to know probably just lacto and a bottling Sacc yeast. Any idea the type of bottling yeast? Probably a wine strain with the low pH they have.
mybluecyan
01/11/12 12:08 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
I wonder if the strain of Lacto used is purchased from Wyeast/WL or if they propagate a 'wild' strain in house.
Mike T
01/12/12 10:35 AM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
That was the one think I asked that Ron wouldn't answer, which I suspect means that it isn't one of the standard strains (which I don't think could get the results they do anyway). The guy trying to culure it I was talking to hasn't been able to so far though, not sure how long Lacto can live in a high alcohol bottled beer.
Glossolalia
01/13/12 03:21 AM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
There are several strains of Lacto that are viable in high alcohol. When making sake, the kōji used during the moto stage yields some acidity. When the sake in finished fermenting (usually finishes at the 18-20% ABV range prior to dilution), it is customary to pasteurize it. If you don't pasteurize it and allow it to reach room temperature, it spoils and becomes sour as a result of hiochi-kin (火落菌). Some of the hiochi-kin strains and their alcohol-sensitivities are located here: http://www.nrib.go.jp/ken/Lacto.html.

Whether those lactobacilli can survive and thrive in a beer with normal amounts of hops, I don't know with the notable exception of L. brevis which is known hop-resistant (http://dissertations.ub.rug.nl/FILES/faculties/science/2002/k.sakamoto/thesis.pdf), but I'll likely know soon as I have several unpasteurized beers where koji was used somewhere in the process that are maturing.

mybluecyan
01/20/12 01:40 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
Cascade does use brett in some of their beers. Most recently in Raspberry Beckberry. Here's some info on the process....

"It's a NW style sour ale blend of triples and strong blonds that were lacticly fermented and aged more than a year with blackberries in oak. We then did a secondary inoculation with a recently isolated plumbers strain of Brett called Beckamoyces aasskraquii. Some sour cherries were blended in to give this beer some pucker; it was then additionally blended and aged with raspberries. 8% ABV"

smellysell
01/20/12 06:08 PM  
Re: Cascade Brewing Barrel House
Haha!

"plumbers strain of Brett called Beckamoyces aasskraquii"

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