Welcome to the homeBBBrew board!
Like the BBB, the homeBBBrew board is not a club, just a place to talk about making beer. Is there a swap you would like to see happen? If we can find a few others who have something similar then lets do it!

NO SPECIFIC REASON FOR THIS LINK...
I just really like the work levifunk is doing!

PASSWORD PROTECTION: READ THIS BEFORE POSTING!
YOUR BBB USERNAME AND PASSWORD WILL NOT WORK ON THIS BOARD! If you want to post, you need to read this.

HomeBBBrewBoard
HotLinks!
Brettanomyces Brewing
E-Symposium Transcript!

Trouble making Trappists?
Discover Liquid Candy Syrup!
See what color impact to expect from liquid candy.

Search for:
Page:  1 2
Author Replies
Jim L
06/27/11 05:27 PM  
Berliner Weisse Success
Recently I have had some success with a BW that I thought may be beneficial to you guys.

I brewed a batch of Berliner Weisse back in the beginning of March. I started with super fresh Wyeast lacto pack and pitched into a 2-step starter, 1L first then into 4L, both 1.040 and made with 100% DME. The starters all finished but the second was heated and smelled like nail polish remover a few days after it was finished. There was a thin white film that coated the surface of the starter which easily broke. Nothing tasted off, just a weird aroma which faded quickly so I pitched into 10g of 1.035 wort. Fermented at 85F for 3 days, gravity hit 1.015 and I added German Ale yeast to finish things up. The beer finished a week later at 1.003 with no apparent tartness present.

After a week or so I tried to heat the kegs up. After 3 weeks at 86F I noticed a hint of sourness so I added a pint of Riesling concentrate to each keg, dregs from JP La Roja and cranked up the heat with another heating pad and lava lamp. After 2 weeks the beer got significantly tarter and after a total of 3 weeks with the Riesling juice and 95F temps, I have a beautifully tart BW.

One question I have is why the initial lacto fermented the wort but didnít produce any sourness. Is the sourness derived from a product of fermentation over time or w/heat applied (forced aging) or the actual fermentation activity itself? This has puzzled me for such a long time and I got to where I am based on how Kristen Englandís propogates his starters at 95F. I figured why not ferment at that temp since those starters are immediately tart Next time I brew I will inoculate the carboys w/lacto and a bit of brett at 95F, hold it there until I get the sourness I want then keg it.

brewinhard
06/27/11 08:27 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
I kept the temps at 90+ the last BW I brewed (starter too). It took about 3 mos to notice any considerable sourness and got better after 6 mos in the keg. Although my starter I finally pitched was quite sour indeed. Much more sour than the 5 gallon batch was at packaging time.

Dave G
07/14/11 02:01 AM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
I just witnessed the exact same thing with my Berliner...I wish someone could lend some insight on what might be happening.
Mike T
07/14/11 08:56 AM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
I had the same issue with a Gose, strong 100% Lacto start to fermentation, but I never got any sourness. I've had better luck pitching yeast and Lacto together (along with dregs) in my Berliners.
grainbelt
07/14/11 09:08 AM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
A little off topic how long are you guys leaving your BW in the primary for? Are you going right to kegs or bottles after primary?
Mike T
07/14/11 04:22 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
I tend to pitch dregs as well, so I give them a few weeks in primary followed by a few months in secondary. Since I'm already aiming for high carbonation there is less room for additional attenuation in the bottle.
brewinhard
07/14/11 06:35 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
I have gone anywhere from 1 week to 1 mos in primary. They all have soured nicely given mos of patience providing I used a healthy large lacto starter and hot temps.
Dave G
07/15/11 12:14 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
Isn't the commercial lacto strain considered homofermentative? So, what exactly is it producing when it consumes all of the sugars and leaves little sourness behind. I have a really hard time believing that lactic acid is the only thing being produced. I've done sour mashes using crushed grain, which resulted in some very sour wort and very little reduction in gravity.

From what you guys posted, it will get more sour with time. However, you're also pitching dregs which doesn't exactly help in determining where that sourness came from.

It seems like brewing a great Berliner is more a matter of luck than science.

Cody
07/15/11 11:24 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
I recently emailed White Labs. Their strain produces lactic acid and ethanol.
Dave G
07/16/11 03:02 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
Thanks for the info, Cody. I had a feeling that was the case and I feel better knowing that I didn't necessarily do anything wrong.
brewinhard
07/17/11 09:22 AM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
Dave,

any idea about the Wyeast strain of lacto? Does it produce ethanol too?

JeffB
07/17/11 10:27 AM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
I have mad two batches or Berliner and one Gose with the same process/yeast cake. I mash in my beer, sparge, then heat for 15 minutes just to teh point of boiling, cool, rack and pitch my lacto starter. I make my lacto starter using Wyeast Lacto and apple juice. I let the lacto apple juice starter sit in my warming oven at about 90F for a few weeks. I then decant the apple juice (didn't the first time and my beer had a malic acid flavor) and pitch it in. I put a heating belt on and crank up the heat fro 2-3 days. At that time I pitch a pack of US-05 and bring the temp down to ~65F and let ferment as usual. I then let it sit in Primary for about 2 months. The beer is nice and tart, not sour. Similar to the Bruery's Hottenroth. I then use the cake to make a Gose. As Jim L said I will sometimes get a thin white film, on my berliners. Not sure if it is a Brett pellicle or something that lacto produces.
BillS
07/17/11 04:11 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
I did similar to jeffB-

50% Pils/ 50% Wheat Malt 1.034 OG. Boiled 15 minutes. Hops for about 3 IBU. Cooled to 105F then allowed to drift to 95F to hold for 72 Hours.

Pitched Wyeast Lacto built up over 3 weeks to 1 qt starter (x2 for 10 gallons). Lacto dose not really get going until near 90F. Starters were mostly malt (80%) plus apple juice.

After 72 Hours of lactic ferment, the ferment slows and I allowed it to cool to 66F. Pitch a mix of US05 and T58 (t58 was over a year old - do not expect much). Yeast slowly ferment for about a week. After 2 weeks, rack to seconday. G-1.005.

While in secondary, built up a 500 ml starter of lacto for about 1 week at 90F. Added it day before bottling. At bottling (after 2 weeks in secondary) G=1.002. Added sugar for 3.5Vol CO2 at bottling.

After 1 month in the bottle, the beer is clean, fruity malty - small amount of lacto in aroma and a little bit of sourness. Carbonation is about where it is expected. The bready malt character is good but it needs more sour. Hope it continues to sour some in the bottle.

Bill

Al B
08/09/11 12:01 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
<<Isn't the commercial lacto strain considered homofermentative? >>

Homofermentative strains of Lactobacilli (true strains of L. delbrueckii)only produce lactic acid, hence the strain used at WL is heterotrophic. Heterotrophic strains produce Lactic acid, CO2, some acetate and ethanol. So a 100% Lacto culture could produce more acetate / ethanol than lactate or lactic acid and therefore not be sour, while the gravity drops. A pH reading would help here. Also, the evidence of CO2 production.

Second, homotrophic strains are more fastidious - needing more nutrients (amino acids & vitamins) for growth. This may also factor in to the level of sourness in both starter and BW).

Third, Lactobacilli will often use several metabolic pathways based on the environment. Some break down dextrin others do not. Some grow at colder temps, other do not grow under 77 F.

This sounds like more luck than science, I admit. But I have had all sorts of inconsistances with the WY/WL strains - even diacetyl which is a separate pathway of metabolism for Lacto.

Take in account of the following for BW for best success:

1. Nutrients

2. populations

3. mixed lacto cultures

4. growth phases

5. Temperature

Al Bacillus

Cody
08/09/11 05:11 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
Al,

This makes a lot of sense to me. This would be why the WL strain I used produced a lot of CO2 and substantially dropped the gravity with no sourness, while others use the sour mash method and report almost no gravity reduction with lots of sourness.

ChrisF
08/09/11 08:48 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
I've been researching quite a bit about lacto recently and the more I do, the less I feel I know. I'm starting to think one must have a microbiology degree to work with the stuff, oh wait, hey AL!

Seriously though, it seems that most people have luck with lacto when it is part of a blend, usually lambic,........ ok, almost always lambic.

So what's a layman to do?! I would love to make a lactic saison with 3724 as the primary, but as I've said, the more and more I look into it, the less and less I feel like it's even a possibility.

I'll stop there as I don't want to highjack the thread.

Matt C
08/10/11 10:13 AM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
@Al B:

<<Take in account of the following for BW for best success:

1. Nutrients

2. populations

3. mixed lacto cultures

4. growth phases

5. Temperature>>

Two questions:

1. Where can homebrewers get pure lacto cultures for beer fermentation outside of Wyeast + White Labs? (Not to mention certain microbologist who's products are just out of reach...)

2. What's the best way to give the lacto the proper nutrients in the wort?

Al B
08/10/11 12:28 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
1. One option for pure Lacto culture would be for cheese-making. There should be a Lacto bulgaricus (yogurt) and Lacto Lactis (cheese) - Both are subspecies of delbrusckii.

I have not used them specifically for brewing, but I suspect they will work (probably sensitive to hops though).

2. Well if you boil the BW wort or not, add the nutrient when hot - last 10 or 15 minutes before cooling.

John D
08/11/11 07:56 AM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
I'm assuming when you guys say nutrients you mean yeast nutrients?
Nate O
08/16/11 03:12 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
Does anyone know the pH range for a finished Berliner Weisse?I'm brewing one now but it's down to 2.3, which seems awfully low. Before I started dumping slaked lime into, I wanted to make sure it really was low.
brewinhard
08/17/11 08:21 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
2.3 seems really low! Good for you! Is the beer noticeably sour and acidic or still just tart? How old is it? I would say a typical BW might be anywhere from 3-3.8 but I am no expert on the actual numbers.

What was your process like to get such a low pH? And does that low pH correspond with true acidity? How did you measure this level (pH meter, chlorophast strips, pH strips)?

Nate O
08/23/11 09:22 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
I used a Hanna pH meter to measure. After fermentation was done the pH creeped up to 2.5. I thought that was interesting. The wort was actually more acidic than the finished beer. FG was fairly high (1.009) and it tasted good, definitely sour but pleasantly so, not puckering. It's not carbonated yet, so that will probably make it taste more sour.

I started with 4L of starter-liquid in 3 vessels, 4L of H2O with 400g of dextrose and 3 cups of base grains, 1 cup in each growler. I snaked two brew belts around the 3 growlers, and left them in my shed. I would guess the temps were over 100 *F. It was sort of an experiment to see which base grain (pale, wheat, or pils) would make the best sour starter. Turns out they all ended up with the same flavor and pH, so I used all of them.

I mashed my wort, transferred raw wort into some carboys, added sour starters. I wrapped the brewbelts around the carboys and let them sit for 24 hours. After 24hours, I boiled half the wort with the hops, then added the second half to vat pastuerize, then pitched quite a bit of Koelsch yeast.

Jim L
08/28/11 09:33 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
Brewed this one again today. This time I mash-hopped with 4oz (10g batch) of old Hallertau leaf I got last fall from the Anheuser-Busch homebrew club. They said the hops were 3-4 years old so I figured the 4 lbs I got would be great for sours.

Anyway, I did a 15 min boil, chilled to 105F and transferred into carboys that I had just racked 2-month old lambic (wyeast lambic blend) from so there was maybe a half ounce of slurry left in each. Then I pitched a 4L starter of Wyeast lacto in one carboy and a fresh Wyeast lacto pack in the other and set my freezer temp to 100F. Tomorrow I will add 8oz of Riesling concentrate to each carboy.

Jim L
08/28/11 09:52 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
I failed to mention my starter was half 1.040 wort and half apple juice. I used the heat wrap once again on the 5L flask and had it set at 95-100F for three weeks. It was ridiculously tart when I tried it this afternoon.
Jim L
09/26/11 07:31 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
Just checked my pH.

I'd say the time from start to finish makes this a success. The beer with the 4L starter measured at 3.0 and the other using the single pack of wyeast lacto is right around 3.4-3.5.

Chris G
04/02/12 07:17 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
Guys, I recently brewed my first BW.

Did a no-boil, decoction hopped. I pitched a homemade lacto starter from raw grain, and kolsch yeast after which ripped through. The kolsch yeast finished out, and it's developed a pellice. My concern is the strong smell of nail polish remover. The last time I had an infection like this, the beer turned to solvent.

I took a sample, and it's down to 1.004 and tastes absolutely amazing. Very tart, and no hot/solventy taste.

What do I have here? Is this salvageable?

ChrisF
04/03/12 06:06 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
I'm far from an expert on the matter, but when I've encountered that aroma, it has always gone away with time.
Jim L
04/05/12 01:02 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
The smell goes away with time.
Chris G
04/09/12 10:03 AM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
Just an update. I replaced the foil with an airlock, and after a week the pellicle remains, but the solventy smell is gone and replaced by a more wild/sourdough smell.

Is it recommended to bulk age BW, or get them in the bottle?

Scott
04/12/12 10:45 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
White labs says to bottle to age on their lacto instructions on the website
brewinhard
04/13/12 02:10 PM  
Re: Berliner Weisse Success
You can even pitch another healthy, fresh pack of lactobacillus at bottling time to hopefully increase the sourness and acidity of your BW.

Although, I have had good results kegging my berliner's, and then bulk aging them for about 10 mos in cool conditions. It seems to help the acidity and sourness become more complex over time. I then beer gun them for comps or sharing. Got one into the final round of NHC last year with this method.

  Page:  1 2
Return to Forum

Post a Reply
Your Name:
Subject:
Message Body:


 
   
Username

Password

Around Bruges in 80 Beers: 2nd Edition

Around London in 80 Beers

Around Brussels in 80 Beers


Babblebelt contributors in attendance: