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12/06/10 09:40 PM  
Relationship of Lacto and Brett?
What is the relationship of Lacto and Brett?

It appears to me the the two get along very well and the lower pH from the Lacto assists the Brett in flavor and attenuation.

Is there a symbolic relationship going on with the bugs?

I would guess that two parts Brett and one part Lacto would be a good mix but haven't done the mix yet. Using the Brett for flavor and the Lacto to lower the pH.

Also figure that the Brett would start out aerobic and then the Brett and Lacto would would go anaerobic.

12/08/10 10:26 AM  
Re: Relationship of Lacto and Brett?

That is a link which details Brettanomyces species characteristics/fermentation behavior at various levels of lactic acid.

As for when the two organisms are present, It could almost be looked at as a symbiotic relationship. You're right in conferring that as the pH is lowered it changes the behavior of the Brettanomyces, in some ways slowing it down (in the form of some compounds produced) but also aiding in the conversion of ethyl lactate as the lactic acid must first be present. It also appears to help with attenuation as pH is lowered.

To me the greater symbiotic relationship exists between Brett and Pedio. In both Lambic and Flanders reds lactobacillus is more dominant in the earlier stages while it is Brett and Pedio that tend to finish these beers out, or are at least two of the more active organisms during the long aging process. As the beer gets sick some times it is Brett that will help get the beer back into shape. the ropy carbohydrate and protein matrix sometimes produces by strains of pedio is consumed and metabolized by Brett species as well and the Brett is active and present to re-metabolize diacetyl produced by the Pedio. the two take sour beers to a new level of flavor and complexity.

As for a 2:1 mixture that is harder to confer because the LAB bugs are hard to count under a scope when trying for a cell count so pitching by volumes would not give you the same results as the cell counts would be different each time.

12/08/10 06:29 PM  
Re: Relationship of Lacto and Brett?
Thanks Chad! Excellent response.

I had never given thought to Pedio as part of the equation. I knew that Brett cleaned up the diacetyl from the Pedio.

This information give me something else to work with.

12/09/10 01:17 AM  
Re: Relationship of Lacto and Brett?
Chad, I am not sure I am reading your chart right. What does % Apparent Attenuation mean? Were you really only seeing attenuation levels in the 10's-20's for some strains of brett? That sounds so low, and counter to what few (very few) 100% brett fermentations I have done.
12/09/10 11:51 AM  
Re: Relationship of Lacto and Brett?
Yeah you're reading it correct. % Apparent Attenuation is the attenuation percentage seen during the 35 days of primary fermentation under the given conditions stated in the materials and methods section.

I think lower 20's was the least attenuation out of any strains. Not ever strain ferments fast they will all probably finish they just need more time then 35 days. I had to work with some time constraint so I chose 5 weeks. Yeah those B. claussenii were not much of a primary fermenter. The Wyeast B. claussenii did much better as the pH was lowered prior to pitching the yeast.

I don't want to hijack this thread about the research, contact me through email.

12/09/10 04:51 PM  
Re: Relationship of Lacto and Brett?
For the record, I have seen B claussenii ferment like a school of pirahna. And I have seen it ferment like a school of minnows. I found the key to be slurry size, in those cases every other factor was the same. A Berlinner made in January, the only variable was the size of the pitch. I also made a barley wine with BC, took longer than the berlinner of course (which in the first case was completely, utterly done in 1 week) but still performed like a champ. As fast and powerful as any conventional yeast I've ever dealt with.
12/10/10 11:21 AM  
Re: Relationship of Lacto and Brett?
Any guess as to what your pitch size or volume was compared to say your conventional pitch sizes? maybe as twice slurry as a normal Sacch strain?
12/12/10 03:56 PM  
Re: Relationship of Lacto and Brett?

(Re: Attenuation 100% brett.)

I recently put a 100% Brettanomyces beer on keg, and it went from 1048 to 1003 in 7 months = 94% app.att.

(Reading at 2 weeks was about 75% attenuation.)

The brett was from a mix of 6 different strains (Wyeast: B.brux + one isolated strain from their Berliner mix. Orval: isolated strain. De Ranke: isolated strain. Boon: 3 isolated strains.).

The pitch size was about 1 liter saturated starter(aerated+buffered+stirred) to 15 liter.

Fermentation start at 20-25C for a month, then decreasing slowly (ambient in garage) to 2C over 7 months. Fermentation in half-filled HDPE-bucket+airlock. Thick pellicle + distinct hint of acetic acid indicated microoxygentation during fermentation. Nice taste, leaning towards Flemish red.


12/14/10 11:41 AM  
Re: Relationship of Lacto and Brett?
Nice results CarlT,

I think your results sound typical of what to expect out of a well propagated variety of Brett starins. 75% attenuation after 2 weeks with the last 20% taking about 6 months.

Any thought on your fermentation temp? I prefer 20-25*C to get the fermentation started and keep it moving along during the early fermentation stages.

Some interesting strains. Did you culture the De Ranke and Boon or how did you get them.

12/15/10 09:37 AM  
Re: Relationship of Lacto and Brett?

I haven't tested any 100% brett fermenatation at lower temp yet, so no experience on that(but I usually try to stay below 16C(60F) when using brett for secondary since it's said to be the best(?).

The strains were picked as colonies after restreaking colonies originally isolated by plating bottle-dregs on agar. The "De Ranke" strain is from one of their lambic-mixed beers (which uses lambic from Girardin, so I guess this is the "real" origin of that strain). The ones from Boon was from their "Oude Geuze". I haven't actually tested to see if they indeed are different strains, it's just three different colonies picked from the orignal plating. I'm isolating strains from 3-Fonteinen right now, and that plate is quite diverse regarding colony-morphology so here I might actually get truly diverse strains. There are some that are very invasive into the agar.

Regarding the "identity" as Brettanomyces, it is just my judgement from morphology under the microscope, and organoleptic tests on smaller fermentation samples of 100 ml (i.e. does it smell/taste "brett"? do they form acetic acid when aerated? etc.)


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