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Author Replies
Cisco
08/06/10 12:19 PM  
WLP645 Brett Cl
So this is no longer a clean strain of brett CL and has been intentionally dosed with lacto. Anyone know where I can get a clean strain of brett CL????????
Adrian
08/06/10 01:19 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
What? Where? Who? How? Huh?

First I've heard this. Then I searched this forum and found this thread from 2009:

http://www.babblebelt.com/newboard/thread.html?tid=1108752780&th=1240662766&pg=11&tpg=1&add=1

Has WLP645 always had lactobacillus in it? What makes you think it's a recent development?

tankdeer
08/06/10 04:02 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
It has lacto in it? I've used it as a primary strain a couple of times in the past and none of the beers had ANY lactic character to them whatsoever.
derek
08/06/10 04:15 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
Maybe people were complaining at a lack of pineapple character, so they put in a small amount of lacto to help achieve that? Just an idea.
Cisco
08/06/10 06:31 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
The first year of release I used it for quite a few brews and later on a few years ago for the big brett project posted up above. I was warned by other brewing folks around the country that WL did add the lacto due to complaints that it was too clean and didn't act like a brett. Too bad for us now!

I recently bought a vial of it and made a starter which I fed twice and at first the nice clean pineapple was there by yesterday the lacto was quite apparent. I tossed it. I'm a believer now.

derek
08/07/10 03:39 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
What if you just made a hoppy starter, would the hops hinder the lacto enough to get mostly Brett C? Then if you pitched to a hoppy beer as well you could just get a faint lacto character? I have no experience with this, just a thought.
Cisco
08/07/10 10:47 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
Nope, it doesn't work that way. You can't cover up the lacto.
ChadY
08/08/10 01:19 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
I would personally say I would never want to use the Brett C. from White labs as a pure culture. It may be the worst commercial strain available IMO. It doesn't ferment well on its own, produces no unique flavors (barely produces much secondary metabolites aka aroma compounds) I never got above 30% attenuation in 15+ fermentation trials.

With the lacto and Pichia it ferments well and makes a unique culture and beer. Which is very "Brett beer" like.

Anyone interested in the data from this Brettanomyces and 7 other strains I could post the Masters dissertation on this board for all to read if someone knows how to make that happen.

Chad

Mike T
08/09/10 12:23 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
"I would personally say I would never want to use the Brett C. from White labs as a pure culture."

Thatís odd, I wonder if something changed since I used it a couple years back. I had good results with both warm and cool fermentations (with and without aeration), good/fast attenuation, interesting fruity character etc... It wasn't especially characterful, but I thought it was perfect for a pale/drinkable beer.

Rob B
08/09/10 06:58 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
I made one(just wlp845) about 2-2 1/2 yrs ago and it was great! 1.060 down to 1.009. Nice pineapple young, more classic brett as it aged. Still have a couple bottles I believe.
sixbillionethans
08/11/10 12:37 AM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
Also surprised by ChadY's reported performance of WLP645. This year I made an all WLP645 blonde ale that went from 1.056 to 1.014 in 3 months. Definitely not super attenuation that is noted for Brett, but similar to an ale yeast. Aroma and flavor were just different enough to be interesting. Currently employing it as a secondary addition to a Belgian Pale fermented with Unibroue yeast.
sl8w
08/11/10 08:56 AM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
Wait, I'm confused. Chad, are you saying that you did trials with Brett C. isolated from White Labs WL645, and it had poor attenuation, etc., but that when you pitch the WL645 "mix" (the brett C and lacto) it performs well and "makes a unique culture and beer"? If so that may explain why others have had success with 645, and surprise at your findings. I've never used WL, but I agree that Wyeast Brett C. seems to do better w/ lacto (and/or I've liked the beers better when I've added a little lactic acid during fermentation).
brewinhard
08/11/10 09:48 AM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
A nice lactic twang really seems to enhance the brett flavors and aromas. They seem to pair well together especially in secondary. I also think that people tend to associate sourness (lactic acid) with brettanomyces which is really not very true at least in my experiences.
mark
08/11/10 10:59 AM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
I used 2 vials of WLP645 2 years ago in 2 seperate batches.

I used 1 vial in a 1 gallon trial batch of oatmeal stout as the primary strain. Turned out sorta lifeless, got somewhere around 70% attenuation. I still have one bottle left, I should try it soon.

I added the other vial to the secondary of a poorly attenuated english RIS. It never really attenuated much further, though it added added some cherry-like esters. HOWEVER, over the last six months, it has started to take on a slightly sour note.

Adrian
08/11/10 01:06 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
Has actually:

1) Contacted White Labs regarding this issue?

2) Looked at the strain under a microscope?

If not, it's all conjecture which is near useless. This thread is the only place I've ever heard of WLP645 containing more than one type of bug.

Also, does anyone have an image of the yeast head of B. Claussenii? I've got some from secondary fermentation, but I'm curious what it looks like during primary.

ChadYak
08/12/10 01:20 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
Sixbillionethans,

The pure culture fermentation length for the project was 35 days (5 weeks) when studying the fermentation behavior. Any strain taking longer then 35 days to primary ferment is not advantageous for a brewer(y) to use for primary fermentation. Ale yeast takes 4-5 days. Your WLP645 took 3 months, which makes me suspect it didn't have the extra bugs, otherwise you would have had a quicker primary. 3 months is a very long time for a primary fermentation.

ChadYak
08/12/10 01:29 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
sl8w,

Yep so when I first acquired the White lab strains from home brew vials I plated out all the vials to make sure I had pure cultures. I then also pitched the rest of the yeast slurry into starters. The WLP645 plates had pichia and two lacto strains beside a single B. claussenii. Through doing serial dilutions and re-streaking of single colonies I cultured the only Brettanomyces strain to be found in the mixed culture. I used the starter to ferment some wort and threw it away. I then for the project used only the pure culture of B. claussenii from White labs which I had segregated. I still monitored the mixed culture batch and of the other 105 fermentations I conducted it was one of the best as far as being a typical Brett beer. As brewinhard said people associate the lactic tartness with brett beers although a ture brett beer is not sour at all barely some tartness. If you have sourness you either have too much oxygen and acetic acid is being formed or you have lacto in the culture.

So in the Brettanomyces masters project the cultures were all pure single strain cultures, and that is how I have reported WLP645, which continuously performed poorly. It was the worst of the eight strains.

ChadYak
08/12/10 01:30 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
Adrian,

<<1) Contacted White Labs regarding this issue?>> Spoke to Chris about it over a year ago.

<<2) Looked at the strain under a microscope?>> Even better I have photos so you can look at it.

http://picasaweb.google.com/chadyakobson/TheBrettanomycesMastersProject?authkey=Gv1sRgCPH2uaHonobtnQE#5315655654600754866

http://picasaweb.google.com/chadyakobson/TheBrettanomycesMastersProject?authkey=Gv1sRgCPH2uaHonobtnQE#5315655668011015026

ChadYak
08/12/10 01:55 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
I want to clarify this point though, and that is that I don't believe this strain combined with lacto is a quality control issue. I suspect it is this way as it makes a better Brett beer. In my research I found that all strains attenuated better with a lower pH. While this strain didn't as much, the combination of pichia and lacto(s) seem to be a great combination. If this is by accident on the quality side of White Labs then its a pretty good accident.

I feel many people have gotten caught up on doing single strain primary fermentations with Brettanomyces. Why? All I ever hear is people talking about my Brett C. primary or my Brett L... Is there anything you gain except to say I did a primary with a single strain? I do not believe that the currently available strains from the two yeast companies are that good of strains on their own and I would not use a single culture to primary ferment with. There are much greater flavors and complexities achieved with using multiple strains and better sustained flavors achieved in the long run from multiple strains.

sixbillionethans
08/12/10 02:18 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
ChadYak,

My OG was 1.056, which dropped to 1.020 in 4 days. Mash temp was 148F and I used 4% fermentables from acid malt to drop pH. In this way, it behaved similar to observations of Vinnie in a .ppt preso available on web. Transferred to secondary and it dropped another 6 pts to 1.014. Seemed to go dormant for a while then kick start again after 1 month.

Maybe this is semantics but your post says it doesn't reach 30% attenuation in 35 days with 15 trials and I'm stating that your findings are not in line with my experience. I'd say it performs very much like a slightly low-attenuating ale yeast with some unique flavor and aroma highlights. Seems to work well as a blonde or maybe wheat beer.

As a general comment, I'm a long-time reader and once-in-a-while poster to this site. I'm surprised/put off by your absolute-ish comments. Creativity and experimentation is one of the hallmarks of this forum. Take 'er easy, chief, you're being kind of a downer telling people that a strain of yeast that has made some fun, experimental beers sucks. Otherwise, thanks for the detailed info.

ChadYak
08/12/10 03:03 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
I think the nature of my post was misunderstood. I did say "I would not personally" and I then said "in my opinion" its the worst, not that it sucks, simply relative to the others it is not as good when used as a pure culture (which very few have access to). My opinion is based on the fact that I cultured the single strain and used it on its own. In 15 fermentations with different variables. This is very different from the homebrewers who use a vial and attribute the fermentation to being a pure culture of Brettanomyces anomalus "claussenii". My comment was simply for education to improve the understanding of users of this culture. Creativity and experimentation are the hallmark of this forum I have been a huge supporter of everything everyone on this forum has been doing for quite sometime now. But education is also the hallmark of this forum and that is what we as a forum are about. If I didn't come out and state findings then more misinformation concerning this strain and its abilities will continue to be spread.. To me that doesn't seem right, and will hinder reproducibility and user experience

What I'm trying to do is make available information, part of homebrewing is the fun of brewing and experimenting without always knowing what is going on, simply beliefs of what can be observed. In the brewing industry it is a little different as we have labs and the daily experience to understand how these organisms are working. Its not semantics its scientific data. Now that I know more of your fermentation profile it changes a lot. If you used a culture from a homebrew vial then your experience is typical... with the mixed culture that is sold... although usually it finishes faster in about 10-14 days. Sorry if you found my comments to be absolute-ish but they were regarding the pure culture strain and are backed by research conducted over a period of 60+ years, which I further found similar findings with. Cheers

mark
08/12/10 03:36 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
Thanks for the clarification Chad! Awesome info.
sl8w
08/13/10 09:39 AM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
Chad, as always, awesome stuff. In my experience, adding a little lacto or lactic acid to wort pitched with a commercial brett strain/blend has given me what seems to be faster and healthier fermentation, and more enjoyable (to me) final product. The information you provided seems consistent with my experience, and suggests a reason why ("all strains attenuated better with a lower pH", as well as providing a complementary tartness). Thanks for sharing.

But this seems to beg the question: is Wyeast Brett C also a mixed culture? If so, does anyone know what else is in it?

ChadYak
08/13/10 03:52 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
I'm certain from speaking with Greg Doss that it is only a single strain. I have not streaked from the packet as I had slants from wyeast, but still certain its just a single culture
B-Dub
08/13/10 03:57 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
I bottled a Saison with all the various bretts last year.

A year in the bottles, including the brett c, have not produced any sourness.

In fact the brett c has producted a great profile in a Blonde Quad I bottled as well. Better than the non-brett beer.

BW

GuitarLord5000
08/24/10 01:37 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
Here's my return email from White Labs:

Hi Martin -

We have received a couple of other inquiries concerning this strain. We

recently ran identification tests on the strain after the questions, and

found that it still is indeed a pure strain of Brettanomyces claussenii and

it is not being mixed with Lactobacillus or any other organisms. I believe

what folks are beginning to notice is that there is a great deal of acid

production with this strain, and that is increased when there is oxygen

present. This may give the impression that there is Lacto in the culture.

I hope this answers your question - let me know if I can help you with

anything else!

Cheers,

Neva Parker

Head of Laboratory Operations

White Labs, Inc.

Pure Yeast and Fermentation

www.whitelabs.com

jaymo
08/27/10 04:01 AM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
Huh. Apparently they're either lying, misinformed (which I'd be disappointed in coming from the head of laboratory operations,)or the quality control isn't catching it then, since the lacto strains have been identified in the vials by others. Why would Chris White tell Chad one thing, but their Head of Lab Operations tell GuitarLord the opposite?

That said, I've done some of my best beers using starters made from the White Labs Brett C. While the sourness always seemed lactic to me, I just attributed it to some goofy characteristic of that particular yeast. This makes sense though, because the level of sourness I've been getting is on par with what I'd expect from a mixed fermentation with lactobacillus and the tartness in the beers really does have a nice lactic quality.

I picked up a couple packs of Wyeast's Brett C to try similar recipes with recently, but I'm tempted to just keep using the WLP version for the Brett primaried beers now and toss the Wyeast brett C into an Old Ale or something.

Gabe H
02/08/13 08:31 AM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
Arise from the dead necrothread!

I've brewed two dark ales with WLP Brett C. First batch got 2-stage starter. 2nd batch got a starter made from the yeast of the first. I'm just a lazy homebrewer so by no means do I have lab level sanitation, but I do my best.

First beer is tart with some lactic character. I sent it out for the funky swap and everyone liked it. Had some of the flavor profile I was going for, quite good for a first attempt IMO. Lactic character strong enough that folks questioned if I'd only used brett....

Batch 2 is in the carboy still. I pitched in the 70s this time and it got into the 80s, fermented out in under 72 hrs. First batch stayed at 68-70 and took almost a month to hit 1.008. Holy cow - batch two is sour! Like sour sour. Very lactic, good funk that I associate with brett secondary, stone fruit and sour cherry. Really make me wish I had a barrel to age it in. I'm guessing that I should dump the slurry from this one. Sounds like the lacto has take over to the point where a 3rd beer would be too sour, but maybe I'll do one anyway and blend it if need be.

If anyone has the lab skills, I could send out a bottle of each batch, you could science it up, and then tell us whats in there? Really interested to know.

Smokinghole
02/08/13 11:12 AM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
What are the hopping levels in each? I ask because I too have a culture of a lacto but its very hop tolerant, does not produce rope, and leaves a clean tartness.

If you want I can get the lab at work to either give me plates or see if they want to play with the culture. Send me an email. eodcole at gmail

Gabe H
02/08/13 08:05 PM  
Re: WLP645 Brett Cl
Both low IBU - single digit. I'll shoot you an email Smokinghole.
 
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