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Author Replies
02/01/10 12:22 AM  
Re: Saisons
Has anyone used the WLP 566 "saison II" and fermented it pretty hot? Just wondering if it gets fuselly or it stays pretty clean.

I usually start all my ales, even saisons, below 70 and then ramp up to wherever I want to be.

3 days ago I brewed a saison with 566 and started it high, at 76 and brought it up to 80 so far, and I might get it up a few more degrees. I hope it's not rocket fuel!

02/01/10 03:13 AM  
Re: Saisons
my guys were out of the 3726 so I ended up using the WLP072 French Ale which I believe is the white labs equivalent.
02/01/10 02:46 PM  
Re: Saisons

I've been experimenting with wine yeasts in a multi-yeast blend in order to get better fermentations than the Dupont strain alone. What I like about wine strains are their preference for the warmer temperature range of saisons. One thing to be aware of is the competative or 'kill' factor, in a blend with beer yeasts you want to use a 'sensitive' or 'neutral' yeast. Two yeasts I like are Lallemand 71B and Lallemand Assmanhausen. When used alone, both took a 1.060 wort to 1.010. Not bad for not being able to ferment maltotriose. That same wort fermented down to 1.007 with wlp550 (Achouffe). The 71B strain had a more pronounced peach/fruity character and was a very fast starter. The Assmanhausen had less fruit and more spicy phenols, and was a slow starter. I just brewed a beer with Dupont(70%)/Assmanhausen(25%)/Fermentis T-58(5%) with wonderful results.

I'd be interested to hear if anyone else has some experience with wine yeasts.

02/01/10 06:47 PM  
Re: Saisons
Thanks MashGordon. I was aware of the kill factor, mostly from listening to that sunday session podcast w/ Shea Comfort. I was thinking of either splitting the batch into seperate carboys to use the 2 yeasts seperately and then blend the resulting beers, or else starting with beer yeast and then add the killer wine yeast partway into the process. I'll most likely start with the first option.

A friend came over and brewed at my place yesterday. He is doing an all Pils grain bill then using wine yeast and an ale yeast together in some fashion. (He is aware of the kill factor as well.) I'll report back with more specific info somewhere on the forums once we see how his turns out.

Rob B
02/02/10 04:50 PM  
Re: Saisons
So I have another saison in the primary right now and I decided to go with a decent percentage of oats and a bit of sauer malt for this one coupled with nugget and amarillo hops. This was the wyeast 3711 and I plan on using the cake for a saison printemps(spring version) which will be mostly pils and wheat and will use a local NM farm's cascade hops. The farm is providing all the hops for an Identic-Ale type tasting that my homebrew club is doing. Everyone can come up with their own recipe but must utilize the donated hops. In April we will all get together on the farm for a grand tasting!
02/04/10 04:33 PM  
Re: Saisons
"I just brewed a beer with Dupont(70%)/Assmanhausen(25%)/Fermentis T-58(5%) with wonderful results."

Interesting. I'd like to know more about your experience with T-58. Why did you go with just 5% (by weight I presume)? I've made a reasonably enough Saison a couple times using T-58 and the results are pretty decent. However, in both cases, the beer just didn't have that "wow" factor.

Have you fermented cold or hot with T-58 and which did you prefer?

I've been tempted to go with a blend of T-58 and Cote Des Blanc. The wine yeast worked out great in a batch of cider so I thought I'd mix 'em and see what happens.

02/05/10 01:05 AM  
Re: Saisons
Saisons are typically pretty dry. Without the ability to ferment maltotriose, how do you guys get your wine yeast saisons to ferment out dry enough?

I looked into using Convertase AG-300 enzyme, but it seems to not really be available in homebrewer quantities. Would another enzyme like amylase added to the mash (so that it is neutralized in the boil) help break up maltotriose into simpler sugars?

02/05/10 10:13 AM  
Re: Saisons

A fruit juice addition is something I've always wondered about with Fantome. At what point are you adding it?

02/05/10 12:26 PM  
Re: Saisons
Add the juice straight into the fermenter when you pitch the yeast.
Rob B
02/24/10 03:01 PM  
Re: Saisons
So, I am thinking of brewing a rye saison with a bit of caraway seed to compliment the rye. Has anyone used caraway in a beer, and if so, how much?
03/09/10 10:28 PM  
Re: Saisons
I had great results with a lightly hopped (15-25 IBU)saison with the following grain bill and a DuPont Yeast (it did take 2mo to reach final gravity)

10% Unmalted Oats

20% Unmalted Rye

30% Unmalted Wheat

40% Belgian Pale Malt

And a OG of 1.057

03/10/10 04:41 PM  
Re: Saisons
I love the Farmhouse Ale too! Wyeast did a special run for a Belgian fest, I ordered 2 packs from these guys last week.


03/11/10 09:20 AM  
Re: Saisons
Jaymo -

we use convertase for our champagne yeast fermented wit. You can get 500ml quantity from C & B, your LHBS should be able to order it. That would last you a long time but it's not very expensive - I think 10 or 11 bucks, probably would be maybe 13 or 14 from your LHBS? Could probably get 15 batchs out of it if not more....

03/11/10 02:27 PM  
Re: Saisons

There's a competition here in Portland, Or called Cheers to Belgian Beers where local breweries use produce a beer using a specific belgian strain (this year is 3726) and then debut them all at a festival in May. Wyeast makes a special run of packs available locally for the homebrew side of the festival.

03/12/10 04:05 AM  
Re: Saisons
BPotts- Crosby & Baker? A search didn't turn up any info on their website and the lhbs had no idea when I asked about it. Nor did the Northern Brewer store in Milwaukee.
03/12/10 12:02 PM  
Re: Saisons
I will soon doing a split batch (15g; 5g each) with 2 guys from my homebrew club. We're making the Firestone Walker Lil' Opal recipe from BYO last year with one change: each of us is going to use different yeasts. One guy is using 3711 French Saison and I'm not sure what the other guy is using yet. I'm going to use 3726 Farmhouse ale and I'm on the fence whether I should add bugs (and if so, what bugs) to finish it. I recently had Fantome's Saison (under the Biere Artisanale label) which I was completely enamored with. I'd like to get a finish equivalent to this beer; dry, tart, refreshing, and slight acidity. I'm afraid adding dregs from a Fantome bottle would put the acidity and sourness over the top, so I'm more inclined to add a packet of bugs. But do I add lacto? Brett C. Wyeast 5151? Any other suggestions?

Here's the ingredients for the recipe:

5 Gal batch

OG = 1.043

FG = 1.010

SRM = 5

IBU = 15

50% Pils or 2Row

25% Wheat

25% Torrified Wheat

3oz Acidulated

3oz Carawheat

03/12/10 01:38 PM  
Re: Saisons
If you add the Fantome dregs make sure to add them once the 3726 has completely finished out dry. The lactobacillus in the Fantome is aggressive. I added dregs to early in fermentation in one of mine and its heavy on the sourness.
03/12/10 06:02 PM  
Re: Saisons
Has anyone brewed a Saison using Amarillo and Citra Hops?

I was thinking of using them with the 37ll yeast.

here is the hop additions that I have as of now.

any feed back would be good.

OG 1.059

IBU's 29

.25oz Citra 12 AA 60min

.5oz Amarillo 8.6 AA 30min

.5oz Citra 5min

.5oz Amarillo 5min

03/12/10 06:38 PM  
Re: Saisons
jwk, I have done a strong Saison with Amarillo, but have not had access to Citra for anything as yet. I think you'll find a bunch of folks here have used Amarillo in Sasions. Call me crazy, but I get a real tangerine-like citrus quality from this hop.

The strong Saison I used it in used WL565 and was inpired by Dupiont's 'Bon Voeux'. All belgian pilsner malt, a little white sugar, 10%-ish, dry-hopped with Amarillo. The hoppiness was a little harsh when young but rounded out nicely over time.

03/12/10 11:36 PM  
Re: Saisons

Weird.... I have a gallon of it sitting in my brewery walk-in right now, purchased directly from Crosby and Baker..... maybe it's only available commercially? But, if it's in my catalogue, can't see the one for homebrew stores being any different....

The LHBS guys may not have heard of it because they never intentionally looked it up in the catalogue, but who knows....

You aren't in the philly area by any chance?

03/12/10 11:37 PM  
Re: Saisons
I did a Simcoe saison over a year ago...

Pretty nice, aged well...

03/13/10 08:10 AM  
Re: Saisons
Mmmmmm.... Simcoe saison you say? did it come across piney and resinous at all? Or did that drop out after awhile?
03/13/10 12:46 PM  
Re: Saisons
No it wasn't too piney/resinous. From what I remember the hop additions were not too heavy handed.

03/13/10 11:03 PM  
Re: Saisons

Nah. Milwaukee/Racine, WI. I asked the Nothern Brewer guys to look it up and see if they can order it with their next shipment. Waiting for word back from them now. If not, I know someone who runs a winery and may have access to ordering it commercially for me. Thanks for the info!

Stefan Berggren
03/15/10 06:39 PM  
Re: Saisons
With using the DuPont yeast, you need lots of DAP and good aeration. I usually use 1-2 lbs. beet sugar and mash at 148F. Then I ferment at 80-85F in a low shallow (square container). Initial will take off like a rocket, but the rest of the ferment usually takes 1-2 weeks. Second generation works better than first. My grain bill is Belgian Pils and Wheat, nothing else (outside of sugar). Then hops (65 min addition) of Saaz or other noble, with a dash of Summit. Carbonate high or carbonate with Brett culture.
03/16/10 06:10 PM  
Re: Saisons
Yummmmm.... sounds good. I too have had better results with second generation yeast using the WY 3724. Got to order some more soon to start brewing for summer.
04/01/10 10:49 AM  
Re: Saisons
I am with the OP, I like the 3711. I got too much

green apple with the 3726 but it did make a very sour beer

when I put ovral bugs in it.

If you ever get to "The Pumphouse" brewery in Longmont CO,

try the Cherry Bomb Saison if it is available.

Man that is ONE cherry bomb...good...almost over the top cherry beer.

05/21/10 02:58 AM  
Re: Saisons
The Convertase AG-300 finally arrived! I'll be trying out some wine yeasts in the near future. (I'll most likely start with an all Pils, mildly hopped batch just to get a baseline on the amount of fruity yeast character. This might be nice to have around for blending with some sours anyway.)
05/21/10 11:27 AM  
Re: Saisons
05/22/10 08:43 PM  
Re: Saisons
Update on the saisons I made with the WLP 566 "Saison II" strain. I fermented pretty warm -up to 86- and the beer was not "hot" but it really didn't have a great ester profile. Lots of pepper phenols, but the esters were really low and it was sort of a 1-dimensional beer. I could see this yeast working well as a secondary strain to dry out an underattenuated saison, or as a primary strain if brett were pitched, or maybe in a spiced version of the style. But on it's own it is a good fermenter with not enough character for that wonderful ester profile I look for in a saison.
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