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10/26/08 02:21 PM  
Does Flaked Wheat Need a Turbid Mash?
I'm doing a sour with the following recipe:

8 lbs Dingemann's Pils

4 lbs Flaked Wheat

1 lbs Rice Hulls

.5oz each of Goldings and Saaz (fresh unfortunately)

I'll use filtered soft water I'll treat with Gypsum and CaCl to bump up the ph to around 7.

Also collected 12 oz of dregs from several sours I'll pitch in the primary and let go for a year or so.

My question is in regards to the mash. As I understand, when using raw wheat, or some variation thereof where it hasn't been gelatinized yet, you want to do a turbid mash. Something where all the wheat and 10% of the grain is boiled. Or, some sort of step mash to convert the wheat.

If I'm using flaked wheat is this really required since it's already gelatinized? Can I just ignore this step?

If not required, can I just use a single step mash with all the grain and hold between 150 and 155 for 60 min. Actually, what would be a good temp to hold at for enough starches/dextrins/etc?


10/26/08 02:48 PM  
Re: Does Flaked Wheat Need a Turbid Mash?
I think you are talking about needing a cereal mash instead of a turbid mash. The flaked wheat does not need a cereal mash prior to it's addition to the main mash.

From Liddil Lambic Lesson re: a turbid mash:

Turbid Mashing for the Homebrewer

The following is a conversion of the Cantillon turbid mash schedule to homebrew scale.(3) Based on the information presented in the article from Brewing Techniques, the Cantillon Brewery gets approximately 33-34 pts/lb/gallon.

The grist is composed of 34% Raw Wheat and 66% Malted Barley. A number of assumptions have been made in scaling down this mash schedule. It is assumed the we want to end up with a wort with an original gravity of approximately 1.048. It was also assumed that a yield of 30 points/pound/gallon would be obtainable using this method. As will be seen this assumption was not valid for this mash schedule carried out using the equipment and methods described. Your own individual results may vary.

The recipe was designed to provide 5 gallons of wort with an original gravity of 1.048. If we assume that we can get 30 points/pound/gallon then we need a total of 240 points.

We will assume one pound of grain yields 30 points. We want a 1.048 OG wort of 5 gallons. This is 48 points X 5 gallons = 240 points total. 240 points/30 points/lbs of grain = 8 lbs of grain.

For 5 gallons you will need 240 pts total. 240 pts/30 pts/lb/gallon = 8 lbs of grain Based on this calculation we will need 8 lbs. of grain. For a further explanation of mash calculations see reference (9).

The grist is 66% malt and 34% raw wheat. The barley malt fraction is 66% of 8 lbs which is 8 lbs X 66% = 5.3 lbs malt. 8 lbs total minus 5.3 lbs of barley malt equals 2.7 lbs of raw wheat.

The Cantillon schedule calls for mashing in 1300 kg grain/850L water (2860 lbs/900 qt) = 3.2 lbs/qt or 0.3 quarts of water/pound. We have 8 lbs of grain X 0.3 quarts = 2.4 quarts of water. In all of the following steps the temperature and water additions were taken directly from the Cantillon schedule as published and scaled accordingly.

1.) In kettle #1 add water at 144 F(62 C) to the crushed grain to achieve a temperature of 113 F (45 C) (about 2.4 quarts of water). Mix grain and water thoroughly and allow to rest at 113 F for 10 minutes. This amount of water is enough to just wet all the grain and flour. The mash needs to be stirred very well to make sure all the grain is wetted and no clumps of flour are present. Total time for this step is about 20 minutes, with the temperature rest included.

2.) Next, add enough boiling water (212 F)(100 C) to the mash to bring the temperature to 136 F (58 C). Do this over the course of 5 minutes making sure to mix thoroughly. Allow the mash to rest for 5 minutes at this temperature. Remove about a quart of liquid from the mash and add to kettle #2 and heat to 176 F (80 C). It will take about 3.5 quarts of water to raise the temperature to 136 F and you will end up with a very soupy mash with plenty of excess liquid. The liquid taken off should have the appearance of milk. Once heated it will clear up and large particles of hot break will form.

3.) Add more water at 212 F (100 C) to the mash over the course of 10 minutes to bring the temperature to 150 F (65 C), again with constant mixing. It will take about 5 quarts of water to achieve this temperature. Allow the mash to rest for 30 minutes at 150 F (65 C). At this point the mash will be very soupy and the liquid much less milky in appearance.

4.) Next remove 4 quarts of liquid from kettle #1 and add to kettle #2. Continue to heat kettle #2 at 176 F (80 C). The liquid removed from kettle #1 will be very cloudy but not quite as milky as the liquid previously removed.

5.) Add more 212 F (100 C)water to kettle #1 to bring the temperature to 162 F (72 C) and allow to remain at 162 F for 20 minutes. Again it will take about 5 quarts of water to reach the rest temperature. The mash should be very thin and soupy with a great deal of small particulate matter in the liquid portion of the mash.

6.) After the 20 minute rest the liquid in kettle #1 is run off and brought to a boil in a 3rd kettle (#3). Enough of the liquid in kettle #2, at 176 F, is added back to the mash in kettle #1 to bring the mash to a temperature of ~167 F (75 C). The mash is allowed to rest at 167 F for 20 minutes. Any liquid left in kettle #2 can be added to the previously collected run off in kettle #3. It will take most all the liquid in kettle #2 (~1.25 gallons) to raise the temp of the mash to 167 F.

7.) After 20 minutes the wort in kettle #1 is recirculated to clarify it and the sparging with 185 F (85 C) water is begun. Sparge until run off gravity has dropped to less than 1.008 and boil it with the previous run off from kettle #1. Boil the wort, now in kettle #3, until the volume is reduced to ~ 5 gallons.


cereal mashing (from an old HBD post)

A classic cereal mash involves mixing roughly 90% crushed raw grain with about 10% crushed malt and then immediately stepping this to or just above the raw grain gelatinization temperature. Some ranges for gelat temps for common raw grains (and others) are:

maize(corn) 62C-74C

sorghum 69C-75C

rice 61C-78C

wheat 52C-64C

barley 60C-62C

potato 56C-69C

To answer your last question yes, you can do a single step mash. I would hold it around 152-154 personally. The lower you go the more fermentable your wort will be and the less body your final product will have.

Sorry for the long post.

10/26/08 05:35 PM  
Re: Does Flaked Wheat Need a Turbid Mash?
Thanks EWW for the quick response!

So, if you're using flaked wheat, no need to do another step. Just do a mash as normal in the range of 152-154 and hold for 60 minutes?

And many thanks for the long post!

10/26/08 08:11 PM  
Re: Does Flaked Wheat Need a Turbid Mash?
That's what I would do.
10/26/08 08:23 PM  
Re: Does Flaked Wheat Need a Turbid Mash?
The process of making flaked wheat(rolling) gelatinizes the starches for you, so you may indeed just mash as normal. This goes for all flaked or rolled grains.
10/26/08 10:19 PM  
Re: Does Flaked Wheat Need a Turbid Mash?
Thanks for the responses!

Got confused a bit in that I read some guys still doing a cereal mash with flaked wheat and wondered if it was really required.

Now I know! Many thanks!

10/27/08 12:20 AM  
Re: Does Flaked Wheat Need a Turbid Mash?
Not sure where Palmer got this information, but from "How to Brew":

"Gelatinization is not like being pregnant, it's like cooking. Actually it is cooking. Instant oats are more gelantinized than old-fashioned rolled oats. Also, just because an adjunct is flaked or pre-gelatinized does not mean that it is fully accessible to the mash enzymes."

So, Palmer is claiming there is definitely something to be gained from a cereal mash...even for flaked ingredients.


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